CUV/PICCHIOTTI`s

[FLYING FISH]

I thought I better start another thread from that on the Dry Martini one,if the CUV`s get out of hand.
Firstly the Sunseeker XPS 34 is Buzzi not Shead design.Touchy subject.
As can be seen from the Dry Martini thread `Black Tornado` knows his stuff and we reguarly correspond to trade info to build up the offshore history.Being in Italy he knows in good detail the history of the boats that raced there.
So,if we start with Miss Enfield 1 (not the best of boats,as Leonardo de Costa de Saigo was involved in the construction.He went on to Crusader boats having played the designer at Sheads.Not the thing to do.)Things got better when the Vosper boys got involved with Miss Enfield II,the lines of which was stretched for `Enfield Avenger`and in turn streched again for the Picchiotti 39 (the two Alitalia boats) These in turn would have added length for the CUV 41.Can`t remember how the beam changed in all this.The definition of length is always debatable,depending how you read the drawings.
Picchiotti Shipyards in Viareggio commissioned the 2 Alitalia boats and CUV shipyards came along and took over the design and called them CUV 38.
There always seems to be confusion in the politics of Picchiotti and CUV.Maybe `Black Tornado` has inside knowledge.
There was another Picchiotti design boat and that was `Martini Racing` which ended up as `Cafferel`
Della Valle had one of the old Alitalia boats,the others were CUV.
Shead has always favoured alloy over GRP as you know where you are with it, when squeezing the last drop of weight out.It was only when ABO was made to a fairly basic layup and not cored material,progress was made.You can be too clever sometimes working on the minimum stress requirements.
Between `Black Tornado` and myself we have researched quite a bit on all the CUV monos and cats,so to list them here would be fairly time consuming,but it can be interesting checking out where each boat ended up.
The Niccolai boat was Dry Martini 2 ex-Alitalia Due.De Valle then had it as Ego and then `Rothmans Ego`.

[BluFin]

IMHO two of the most lovley Alloy cabin boats - they could have performed better but I loved em anyway

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/F/Ford+Persuader+_1973_.jpg.html

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/M/MISS+DUNHILL+_1971_.jpg.html

You could see Avenger Too in them along with the DS110 Cruiser

[motorvator]

Firstly the Sunseeker XPS 34 is Buzzi not Shead design.Touchy subject.

:lol:lol:

What's touchy about it? Do you reckon Fabio was looking over Dons shoulder when he done it or did he just splash a Revenger:devil:

In fairness to you, you are obviously confusing the XPS34 with the XS2000 15 years later.:hugegrin:

[Black_Tornado]

Sorry flying fish but I was writing my intervention on the other proper thread while you created one of them special!:cry:
Ok for the next ones on the CUVs etc. here!:up:

[Black_Tornado]

:lol:lol:

What's touchy about it? Do you reckon Fabio was looking over Dons shoulder when he done it or did he just splash a Revenger:devil:

In fairness to you, you are obviously confusing the XPS34 with the XS2000 15 years later.:hugegrin:

Buzzi has not always been so original.
For instance some mono of class 2 as the Black Iveco looked a lot at certain hulls made in USA.
To don't speak of the boats of the failured of the Super Hawaii of the firsts editions of the endurance era Venice-Montecarlo.
Ooops we are out of thread again!:pirate:

[cfun]

As little Nige says this is a can of worms ...

No wonder I never did quite get all the tie up's with CUV and the yards it was allot more complex than I first thought, however I was not aware FF worked with Don Shed and therefore could tell the story from the inside and of course with Black Tornado being Italian there is a huge wealth of knowledge available

Does Cantieri Uniti Viareggio still build boats this link does not work in Yacht yard's directory http://www.klehn.de/Yachtwerften.htm
but under Super yacht times there are many Italian ship yards starting with the name Cantieri http://www.superyachttimes.com/shipyards/search?search_name=&search_country[]=97&search_services[]=new_building
having looked over before and posted links before to some of the amazing yachts built in these yards, the Italians passion for the sea is very evident and understandable given the climate and going by the Boatmad pics posted by JF on the Buzzi trip some stunning cruising area's as well
back in the late 80's there was another shipyard on Italian race boats called Ferrari in the link it ties it with the name Cantieri

As FF says maybe the 38 and 41 CUV are identical beam boats as they are built in allu I would assume stretching it would be far easier than a glass boat with moulds and without running a measure over them the size differences may be debatable although I have to say the Annabella/Follett boat looked biger than the early Della Valle boats

[gazza]

IMHO two of the most lovley Alloy cabin boats - they could have performed better but I loved em anyway

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/F/Ford+Persuader+_1973_.jpg.html

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/M/MISS+DUNHILL+_1971_.jpg.html

You could see Avenger Too in them along with the DS110 Cruiser



Was Ford Persuader (350) not Scott and Adams dads boat,


gaZ

[blind dog]

spot on gazza,i know ford p is old fashioned today but i still like it but maybe thats just because it was my fathers

[Adam]

A really impressive boat in the rough - but not that quick in the calm at first thought.

However when you consider the weight of it - lots of savings could have been made on fit-out. Also all welded topsides / deck - so I guess thickness must have been way up. Then only running 250 Sabres - up-rated to a supposed 300 each - and running on shafts the performance does not look too bad.

A real character of a boat with a fair degree of success - with a second overall in the roughest CTC.

Still out there somewhere, saw it I guess 5 or 6 years ago.

[FLYING FISH]

Lets forget the model numbers for a moment,what I was driving at was that if ,what I call the D-Reg racer,the one setting the endurance records was referred to as Shead boat,as it was a Buzzi design,it was the first time Sunseekers had departed from a Shead design since they began as Poole Powerboats.
Not sure what you mean `could have performed better` Blu Fin.Ford Persuader when as Unohoo came 2nd OA and 1st in class in just about the roughest CTC there has ever been.Miss Dunhill went on to have a 9 year race career.Like all boats, a lot of it is who is driving and what sort preparation .
Back to the CUV craft.Della Valle had the following

Picchiotti 38 - Rothmans Ego ex-Alitalia Due
CUV 38 - Rothmans Ego (went on to become RB08 Cinzano)
CUV 38 - Ego Lamborghini (went on to be GB Pedrini,Venice - Monte winner)
CUV 41 - Pinot di Pinot (went on to become Gruppo dalle Carbonaire)

and then his wife put a stop to him racing the circuits,so he went endurance racing.

Have not followed CUV other than their raceboats,but their career runs from 1968,and their roots go back to 1860.Their 25yr anniversary booklet talks about the Alitalia boats being CUV 38,which is cobblers,and I have seen articles saying how CUV have made the Alitalia`s a better design,etc.
Don`t you just love the Anglo Saxon/Italian rivalry.Scheinder Trophy all over again.

So far I have recorderd 9 CUV 38 and 6 CUV 41,but the listing is still not 100% complete and `Black Tornado` and I quite often have an International conflab on what we think is correct or not.

As I`ve mentioned before this sort of thread should be in a separate `Classic Section` as per `Offshore Only`,as it tends to clog up the banter sections.Any comments Jon or Matt.

[SplitPin]

IMHO two of the most lovley Alloy cabin boats - they could have performed better but I loved em anyway

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/M/MISS+DUNHILL+_1971_.jpg.html

You could see Avenger Too in them along with the DS110 Cruiser

Is this the one (Miss Dunhill) that became Robert Bruce as owned by Mike Doxford's brother Bob?

[Adam]

So far I have recorderd 9 CUV 38 and 6 CUV 41,but the listing is still not 100% complete and `Black Tornado` and I quite often have an International conflab on what we think is correct or not.

As I`ve mentioned before this sort of thread should be in a separate `Classic Section` as per `Offshore Only`,as it tends to clog up the banter sections.Any comments Jon or Matt.

How many others (similar) - built elsewhere? Legend and the boat built at Souters for Spain?

As to a separate classic section - sounds really good.

[BluFin]

Is this the one (Miss Dunhill) that became Robert Bruce as owned by Mike Doxford's brother Bob?


think so

[FLYING FISH]

Raking out some salvaged drgs from the attic,here is some tin trivia for `Cfun` and Adam`.

ME I,ME II,Miss Dunhill,Avenger 007,Unowot,Alitalia were all 8ft beam with rise of keel 15ft aft of stem.
From stem to aft end of topside styling was

ME II - 32.5` Dunhill - 33.25` A007 - 33` Unowot - 37` Alitalia - 38.5`

From stem to transom @ keel

ME II - 32` Dunhill - 32.5` A007 - 32.25` Unowot - 36.5` Alitalia - 37.3`

So we called Alitalia 39`,Picchiotti called it 38`.

Decks ME II /Alitalia/Unowot- 2mm Swaged Dunhill/A007 - 3mm welded (side-5mm)

Now I know as previously reported a young Scott had nothing better to do but get his feeler gauge out on the topside of Ford Persuader ,as thats just about all he could see at that age whilst whizzing along,but it makes you wonder how much 1mm in plate thickness really affects performance.
If you take HTS,it virtually doubled it`s H.P. when it was Apache,and with outdrives as opposed to HTS shaft drive originally, with the speed going up and the hull remaining as built,how do you pinpoint small wt increase effects or justify the original scantlings.Despite all the theory it`s still a grey art in some areas.Du Cane used to say topside pressure is half bottom pressure,but look at a CUV and the theory falls apart.

[cfun]

Debenhams was a DS designed boat wasn't it? and at 46' it must of been the largest race boat designed by him and maybe the last race boat to come off his drawing board as well
would it of been possible to have a tin bottom and a glass superstructure whereby the problem of de-lamination is solved but a nice styled deck can be added, or is this kind of thinking not possible due to the different materials

Not quite sure what this means?

"Despite all the theory it`s still a grey art in some areas.Du Cane used to say topside pressure is half bottom pressure,but look at a CUV and the theory falls apart".

[FLYING FISH]

Sounds good,a alloy bottom and GRP upperworks,but the reality well.

We a had GRP Buzzi hull turn up with a real bugger of an upperworks lines as formulated by Porsche.Buzzi must have had a hangover that day,because the GRP hull was pretty ropey in construction,even the cockpit/E.R. bhd had bloody great holes in it for viewing the engines.Incredible.I think the Austrian who built it ,never had Buzzi pay him a visit to see how bad it was.Anyway shead design was asked to make it right,so after scrapping it,because of the complicated deck lines (like one of those WW I torpedo boats with a large hump deck cross section changing throughout the length) it was decided to split the alloy/grp constr at the topside knuckle line.After getting as far building the alloy hull and wood plug,Porsche sent over a Belgian expert in plastic engine blocks for racing cars,(don`t ask)and he put the frighteners on everybody saying he could calculate how the grp upperworks would expand at a different rate to the alloy hull.
Debenhams was the last raceboat we did,and we didn`t really want to do that either(No profit in one off raceboats),and don`t ask about the back end otherwise you`ll have Mr.Fuller in full flow and we`ll be here all night,enough to say it had several experimental arrangements of which Fletcher remarked ` that sterngear arrangement has left my props looking like f------g cabbages`.
That comment re bottom pressure is what it says.Once you have calculated the pressure likely on the bottom,you halve it to calculate the scantlings for the topside,but if you work in reverse and take the CUV topside scantlings and calculate what the equivalent topside pressure is and compare it with the bottom pressure, the ratio can be 25% not 50%.
In the early days we used data from Seaplane floats to get an idea of bottom pressures and well as the usual formulas in books and papers.When you think a CUV bottom is 8mm over E.R. and 5mm over rest,you have to decide where the changeover point is,and you won`t get that from books.We even had a guy pitch up from the aerospace industry ,who asked why each deck beam wasn`t a different size as you went forward to the stem and reduced it`s span.After much rolling of eyes,it was pointed out to him,we ain`t designing Concorde mate,and so it went on.

[olli]

...We a had GRP Buzzi hull turn up with a real bugger of an upperworks lines as formulated by Porsche.Buzzi must have had a hangover that day,because the GRP hull was pretty ropey in construction,even the cockpit/E.R. bhd had bloody great holes in it for viewing the engines.Incredible.I think the Austrian who built it ,never had Buzzi pay him a visit to see how bad it was.Anyway shead design was asked to make it right,so after scrapping it,because of the complicated deck lines (like one of those WW I torpedo boats with a large hump deck cross section changing throughout the length) it was decided to split the alloy/grp constr at the topside knuckle line.After getting as far building the alloy hull and wood plug....

Well, totally off topic but I am curious about that hull. That Austrian must have been Horst Stross and the hull a prototype of his 27' 'Kineo' boats. The only ali Kineo that I know of was a single step Race version built by Stain. The other Kineos were as far as I know built by Thyssen Nordseewerke in composite as was the 50' look-alike built by Intercantieri? Do you have any pics of the boat you wrote about?


Back to CUV, how many were made of this nice little thing:
http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/S/Studio+Smania+_1979_.jpg.html

[FLYING FISH]

Spot on,Olli.Horst Stross was the man.They wanted 27,40 & 50ft versions,but as far as I know only the 27ft was built in USA.That 50ft must have been a dummy boat.The deck lines was a real good one to sort in the days before CAD.Can`t find any reference to HP for the 50ft.To have Porsche power for something that big seems a bit ambitious.

[Black_Tornado]

[


Back to CUV, how many were made of this nice little thing:
http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/S/Studio+Smania+_1979_.jpg.html[/QUOTE]

Hi olli;
it is not a CUV but originally it was built by the SIAI-Ambrosini - a brand specialized in the constructions in light alloy of the aeronautic branch of SIAI-Marchetti were builders of the most famous Italian bombers of the second world war.
The boat that I believe was a 28' designed by Gagliotta named Freccia D'Argento and compete in the first years of seventy with Nicola Chiatante and others drivers. Best info can be had perhaps in the precious file Race Results of Flyin Fish on Boatmad-Multimedia.
Then that boat remained to receive dust for several years when the Commander Petroni discover it and then was modified radically by CUV- was totally stripped then leaving only the frames and receiving a new deck (with a typical CUV windscreen)sides and hull with three running strakes instead of original two.
It was the first offshore boat for Alberto Smania in 1979 as La Smania and then for the others venetians brothers Vio as La Cornacchietta.
It was a single engine(MerCruiser) boat with stern drive.
Perhaps in the intents of the CUV there was the idea to give succession to this boat with others to compete in class 2 but there was not any new orders and that remained the only sample.
The cats had taken the upper hand.

[olli]

Spot on,Olli.Horst Stross was the man.They wanted 27,40 & 50ft versions,but as far as I know only the 27ft was built in USA.That 50ft must have been a dummy boat.The deck lines was a real good one to sort in the days before CAD.Can`t find any reference to HP for the 50ft.To have Porsche power for something that big seems a bit ambitious.

Once again blown away by your knowledge and archive! Thanks for the info. I think the first pictures show the 50' that I thought of. Were these pictures taken at Genoa in '91? I don't know if this particular thing was just a mock up but I am sure they have made at least one real boat as it was for sale in Germany some years ago showing a TERRIBLE paintjob. The owner said it was originally powered by MerCruiser but he had changed it to mild Volvos. He promised to send me some pics but I never got them. However reading the article you have also posted I think I was wrong about the builder. As the article mentions Tencara I think it was Intermarine instead of Intercantieri?
Regarding that article, I was surprised to read that Tempest Yachts were involved at the early stages already. I knew they produced a Kineo look-alike marketing them as Tempest 27 XPE powered by 425HP Turbines but I thought that was later after the 'original' Kineos were produced at Thyssen in Emden, Germany?
At the time they were at Duesseldorf Boat Show for two years in a row but these guys were some arrogant d!ckheads with that "Don't even stare without an appointment" attitude. In the second year they had that aluminum Stain racer on display but no info on it whatsoever.


@ Black Tornado: Thank you for all the information, too. So sad there is only one. By the way is it possible that this boat is for sale in Italy at the moment?

[FLYING FISH]

Well done Marco,your in a class of your own.

[cfun]

Spot on,Olli.Horst Stross was the man.They wanted 27,40 & 50ft versions

excellent as soon as the pic's were posted I remember reading about this boat in a magazine, but for some reason I still have an idea I had read about another Porsche engined boat in the 80's fitted in a Tollio Abbate hull

http://www.tullioabbate.biz/page.asp?id=164&lang=eng&mac=225&mn=246


That is a very cute looking CUV'ed boat shame only the one ever built, that's not a step is it in the Boatmad photo or just a dark painted area

[THUNDERBOLT]

I was lucky enough to witness that Porsche 27 in the South of France it was absolutely stunning and went like a rocket, wonder where it is now ?
thanks Graham for all that info I remember one of the mags did an article but blowed if I can find it now.
Mike
COPOC

[olli]

excellent as soon as the pic's were posted I remember reading about this boat in a magazine, but for some reason I still have an idea I had read about another Porsche engined boat in the 80's fitted in a Tollio Abbate hull....

You possibly thought about the Tempest 32 Sport? Go to http://www.tempestyachts.net/main.htm
Click on videos and choose Tempest 32 Sport then you will hear the sound of those Porsche engines. Not many were made I guess because those Porsches almost doubled the price compared to MerCruiser power.
I think Tullio Abbate experimented with all sorts of engines. I have read about his boats with Lambos, Ferrari, AMG Mercedes, Porsche and Jaguars and of course all sorts of marine engines. I am almost sure I have once read in Boat International about plans to power a Superiority 60 with tripple supercharged Aston Martin engines:aaahhh:

[FLYING FISH]

I have noted a couple of Porsche powered craft in the records.

1989 Abbate cat `Five` 40ft 2 x Porsche = 1600hp (see pic)

1987 Abbate mono `Five` 41ft 2 x Porsche = 1600hp (no pic)

[Jon Fuller]

Didn't HFS run Porsche V8 motors at one point?...and V6 Cossies?

Graham, I noted your comment about a dedicated section, and it's fine if you want one, we'll add it.

What you want it called?

[Black_Tornado]

Didn't HFS run Porsche V8 motors at one point?...and V6 Cossies?

Graham, I noted your comment about a dedicated section, and it's fine if you want one, we'll add it.

What you want it called?

Hoping that it don't happen as in a similar forum in a site USA where then it is ended up speaking of old pleasure boats to be modified for making it more howling and fast on the sea.
Old competition and only old competitions world.

[FLYING FISH]

Thanks for coming back Jon re a new section.Could we call it just `Historic`.Fingers crossed that`s acceptable and there`s not too much flak.

At least with a new section it may generate an updating of offshore history.As they say,someone has to do it or it`s lost forever.We already have pics and films that make Boatmad top of the pile.

I can`t find any reference to Porsche engines in HFS,always Chevrolet,but Ben is the all seeing eye on Velocity craft.

[FLYING FISH]

Just seen your comment Marco,and I know what you mean.But you can`t be pure about it unfortunately if it drifts off now and then.If somebody responds to a thread that adds further info to our understanding of the facts, then to me it`s been worth the exercise.We live in hope.At least I would be more encouraged to put data on there irrespective of the time it took me to collate,without having to be bounced off the section,by some guy who feels I`m clogging the thread up, as he wants to know how his 2000hp gas turbine will fit into the latest Marathon rules.

[olli]

1987 Abbate mono `Five` 41ft 2 x Porsche = 1600hp (no pic)

18664

18665

18666

[Tony Davis]

Didn't HFS run Porsche V8 motors at one point?...and V6 Cossies?




Don't recall Porsche motors, but it certainly had V6 Ford motors in it. I seem to remember it being early 80's, perhaps 82/83, when it used to run up and down a pre speed limit Poole Harbour, struggling to get on the plane.

I think they may have been derived from the old GA V6 out of the Cologne Capri's, these were a modified motor by Weslake.

It used to be launched at Rotork, next to Dorset Yacht, and I believe that whilst it was being worked on, the wind blew an engine hatch shut, chopping the end of someones finger off.

I don't believe the motors were very successful, as they had a very small powerband, and with loads of pretty high revs the boat sounded like a very angry bumble bee.

[FLYING FISH]

Thanks for posting Olli,your filling in the gaps in my pic collection nicely.

[Black_Tornado]

Just seen your comment Marco,and I know what you mean.But you can`t be pure about it unfortunately if it drifts off now and then.If somebody responds to a thread that adds further info to our understanding of the facts, then to me it`s been worth the exercise.We live in hope.At least I would be more encouraged to put data on there irrespective of the time it took me to collate,without having to be bounced off the section,by some guy who feels I`m clogging the thread up, as he wants to know how his 2000hp gas turbine will fit into the latest Marathon rules.

We hope.
That it will be purest that will be possible.

[cfun]

What weight difference's are there between using a glass layup as per the 40' D2S against say the 38' CUV for just the bare hull back then, I am guessing the tin hull would be heavier but stiffer also if things don't work out I assume you could alter spray rails etc with the tin boat, I did read on OSO of a 46' Fountain bare ex race hull for sale weighing in at around 2300Kg but that would now doubt be a light lay up and using today's advanced materials and layup techniques plus know doubt the boats true length was probably closer to the 40' mark

[Mikko Oikari]

What weight difference's are there between using a glass layup as per the 40' D2S against say the 38' CUV for just the bare hull back then, I am guessing the tin hull would be heavier but stiffer also if things don't work out I assume you could alter spray rails etc with the tin boat, I did read on OSO of a 46' Fountain bare ex race hull for sale weighing in at around 2300Kg but that would now doubt be a light lay up and using today's advanced materials and layup techniques plus know doubt the boats true length was probably closer to the 40' mark

Looked at the Fountain 46 a while ago. It is close to 46 ft and very wide-10ft.
Talked to Peter Hledin (Skater/Douglas Marine) who built the boat some 10 years ago to Reggie Fountain.
His boats are very light and strong but he told me that this hull had been lying outdoors in Michigan for a couple of winters so it was in very bad shape.
To bad. It would have been a nice raceboat with 3xVolvo D6-engines...

[FLYING FISH]

38ft CUV bare hull - 1400kg (add circa 100kg for 40ft)
40ft Abo bare hull - 1200kg

[FLYING FISH]

As a comparision with the 46ft Fountain 2300kg,Debenhams 45ft was 2175kg bare hull.

[FLYING FISH]

I should have added,when comparing like for like alloy/grp,the GRP hull wt would not nave included fuel tanks and machinery seats which are built in for the alloy boat,so by the time youv`e finished they are very similar weights.
The Debenhams boat was 9ft beam when comparing to the Fountain 46 10ft beam.

[cfun]

I must admit I am surprised at their low weights, I had assumed that D2S weighed in less engines around 3500KG and a few hundred Kilo's more for the Alloy hulled boats so I am not sure how 1200KG bare would translate into 3500KG rigged less engines and drives

[FLYING FISH]

Full wt breakdowns were not done for raceboats,because once you had made sure the bare hull was OK for wt,adding the machinery plus auxilaries was only a quick calc to make sure you were on track,but to give you an idea here are some examples of wt breakdowns that were done.

37ft Unowot/45ft Debenhams in kg

Hull Const 1400/2175
Superstructure Constr 0/260
Hull & S/S Ftgs 63/100
Deck Equipt 49/154
Systems 190/220
Machinery 1394/3090
Seatings 46/40
Electrics 127/170
Nav Eqipt 21/25
Accommodation 24/0
Wood decks & flats 19/25
Paint 10/20


Lightship 3343/6289kg

HP 1200/1800

[ufix1]

Can we go Back to Cuvs

Guys post some pics please

[FLYING FISH]

Bear with it please.In order to answer `Cfun`s question ,info re similar hulls of the same family is posted due to lack of complete wt breakdowns from Italy.If you read all the previous posts you can see the historical tie up.With regards to pics of CUV`s there are tons of them in the Boatmad Gallery,admittedly it assumes you know what a CUV boat looks like and you know the name your seeking.To list them all on here would take some time.
Whilst posting this `cfun` I wonder where you get your lightship wts from ,as the wts I have seen in Italian mags don`t say how much fuel is included in the figures,so it can be misleading unless you do a like for like comparsion with other craft in the same condition.I think I can honestly say I have never seen published wt breakdowns for racing craft,so whether it`s Cougar,Cigarette,Stain,Apache,Phantom,Stapley etc etc each would be doing there own thing based on their family of boats,with the obvious data protection.

[cfun]

I do believe that the slight deviation from CUV to Don Shead and the people behind the projects to be very important, in order to understand the CUV it seems to me a great idea to gain as much knowledge as possible about the boats and idealisms that the team back then were trying to achieve from their boats/designs/materials and weights V strength stiffness etc which obviously have a strong baring on performance and I think it's exceptional good fortune to have someone like FF on Boatmad to talk to us with his huge knowledge and passion for these offshore legends which includes the people and the boats ... no people no boats

"I wonder where you get your lightship wts from ,as the wts I have seen in Italian mags don`t say how much fuel is included in the figures,so it can be misleading unless you do a like for like comparsion with other craft in the same condition" ... FF I must admit a lot of this info has come from various magazines over the years and some from chatting with the teams back in the 80's but as you point out not all is like for like as how much fuel taken into account is unknown
also my memory of chatting to some teams in the 80's has gone a bit hazy but I vaguely recall an Italian team saying their boat weighed in round 4500kg however this may have been because the class 1 min weight could have been that in the 80's meaning the boat was weighted

[Delta28]

Going back-in-time a bit more... I have a copy of "Boat World's" Powerboating Yearbook for 1975, which has a very interesting interview with Tim Powell, it's a good "driver's point-of-view":

The gist of it is.. TP was called-in to drive the 40' Planatec Uno-Embassy after Don Shead injured his back. After mechanical problems in the main '74 C-T-C, they got the "tin boat" (Unowot !) out... and never looked back. He said that, compared to the longer GRP hull, she was like a bullet... The longer hull, better for the rough stuff, was comfortable, but a luxury they couldn't afford - and that the ideal length was probably (for that period in time and with the engines then available) in the region of 35'-36'... something that was going to kill you in a rough race, but had the speed when it mattered...

I would assume it would be the same with the 40 ft vs the 35 ft Cigarettes... though i always liked the 37' Limit-up...

Let you get back to CUVs now... though i agree, this is important ancestry.

[Delta28]

Sorry, should have mentioned Unowot is, of course, 37 ft
Ideal length for the time, in my humble opinion (Unowot, Limit-up, Ajac Hawk...). With more power available today, a longer hull can be contemplated and indeed would be a better-balanced, all-round excellent sea-keeping boat...!

Now, who do we know with a 40' Shead-designed boat...? would look great in yellow and white....

[SplitPin]

As far as I'm aware, the 37' Cigarette didn't appear in 'Limit Up' guise until the late '70's and then was repainted as 'Peter Stuyvesant' for the '80 season. The 37' when sold was fitted with a cabin, so I was told by one of the team.
My all time fave would be the 40' Cigarette. An ideal RB boat. IMHO. :hugegrin:


Back to CUV's now!!!!
Graham.

[Delta28]

Can we go Back to Cuvs

Guys post some pics please

Here ya go...:up: (These are photos of the posters...)

[Delta28]

Can we go Back to Cuvs

Guys post some pics please

Here's some photos of the Martini ones for you...

Afraid I haven't got the original, i.e. first one (1973 ciggy with the large spray deflector / rather ugly cowl) ..has anyone else?

Would also love to see the "very airborne" Limit-Up poster (never got my hands on one of those either!) where she looks as though she's jus' cleared a boatload of spectators...

[Ciao]

Going back-in-time a bit more... I have a copy of "Boat World's" Powerboating Yearbook for 1975, which has a very interesting interview with Tim Powell, it's a good "driver's point-of-view":

The gist of it is.. TP was called-in to drive the 40' Planatec Uno-Embassy after Don Shead injured his back. After mechanical problems in the main '74 C-T-C, they got the "tin boat" (Unowot !) out... and never looked back. He said that, compared to the longer GRP hull, she was like a bullet... The longer hull, better for the rough stuff, was comfortable, but a luxury they couldn't afford - and that the ideal length was probably (for that period in time and with the engines then available) in the region of 35'-36'... something that was going to kill you in a rough race, but had the speed when it mattered...

I would assume it would be the same with the 40 ft vs the 35 ft Cigarettes... though i always liked the 37' Limit-up...

Let you get back to CUVs now... though i agree, this is important ancestry.I

I posted this early '06 -Scroll down for the article.

http://www.boatmad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3501&highlight=tim+powell

[ufix1]

Here ya go...:up: (These are photos of the posters...)

thanks man

[ufix1]

Here's some photos of the Martini ones for you...

Afraid I haven't got the original, i.e. first one (1973 ciggy with the large spray deflector / rather ugly cowl) ..has anyone else?

Would also love to see the "very airborne" Limit-Up poster (never got my hands on one of those either!) where she looks as though she's jus' cleared a boatload of spectators...


Thanks man

[Delta28]

I

I posted this early '06 -Scroll down for the article.

http://www.boatmad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3501&highlight=tim+powell

My apologies for raking-over old coals... bit new to this forum business and had n't spotted that one yet (and very thoroughly done too, if i may say so, sir!). At least it has "flagged-it-up" for newcomers to see...

I suppose there's some Alitalia / Martini posters on here somewhere?! ...must learn to use the search facility...

[cfun]

While we talk about these great boats somehow I feel it not right to leave out the teams behind these great Don Shead achievements, so what of the crew that without them all this would not be possible, famous crew like the Italians Della Valle, the Spelta family, Edwardo polli that ran SDA (which CUV was that?)etc and British guys like Gerv Brazier although not a CUV and the Follett team, although I remember Cookie saying he had a very interesting chat with Richard Lawson ... so where are they now??? these guys gave us a great show back then

[Black_Tornado]

Do we want to remember a little of names of crews?

Team Alitalia (1977-79) - Francesco Cosentino,Davey Wilson,Alberto Diridoni
Guido Niccolai,Mario Pescaglini.
Giulio De Angelis,Franco Esperto.

Team Martini (1978-80) - Guido Niccolai,Jack Stuteville,Cesare Fiorio,Harold Smith.

Team Navalconsult (1980-82)- Alberto Smania,Alberto Diridoni,Fabrizio Smania,Moreno Di Giusto.

Team Ego (1981-1987) - Renato Della Valle,Gianfranco Rossi,Moreno Di Giusto.

Team Miura (1984-89) - Alberto Petri,Franco Statua,Louis Smole.

Team Nooxy (1984-1993) - Angelo Spelta,Alberto Diridoni,Giovanna Repossi,Maurizio Ambrogetti,
Damiano Spelta,Maurizio Riganti,Beppino Guarracino

Team Sun International (1985-1987) - Stefano Casiraghi,Franco Statua.

Team Raimbow (1987-1994) - Edoardo Polli,Franco Statua (only for the 1987 with a CUV).

Plus the expert British navigators as Mike Mantle,Doug Pike and others.

I have quoted to memory therefore they miss many other names, that I hope is added by others.

[olli]

... Edwardo polli that ran SDA (which CUV was that?)
Did you think of this one:
http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/graham/racing/S/Sda+_1988_.jpg.html
Was this the one that was used as Paceboat in the WOC series '95 and is it the only one with that "rounded" deck ?

...British guys like Gerv Brazier although not a CUV ...

Off topic again but was "Jaguar the Legend" the old Toleman Cougar?

[cfun]

Do we want to remember a little of names of crews?

Team Alitalia (1977-79) - Francesco Cosentino,Davey Wilson,Alberto Diridoni
Guido Niccolai,Mario Pescaglini.
Giulio De Angelis,Franco Esperto.

Team Martini (1978-80) - Guido Niccolai,Jack Stuteville,Cesare Fiorio,Harold Smith.

Team Navalconsult (1980-82)- Alberto Smania,Alberto Diridoni,Fabrizio Smania,Moreno Di Giusto.

Team Ego (1981-1987) - Renato Della Valle,Gianfranco Rossi,Moreno Di Giusto.

Team Miura (1984-89) - Alberto Petri,Franco Statua,Louis Smole.

Team Nooxy (1984-1993) - Angelo Spelta,Alberto Diridoni,Giovanna Repossi,Maurizio Ambrogetti,
Damiano Spelta,Maurizio Riganti,Beppino Guarracino

Team Sun International (1985-1987) - Stefano Casiraghi,Franco Statua.

Team Raimbow (1987-1994) - Edoardo Polli,Franco Statua (only for the 1987 with a CUV).

Plus the expert British navigators as Mike Mantle,Doug Pike and others.

I have quoted to memory therefore they miss many other names, that I hope is added by others.

Thank you, that's quite a list are all these people still alive and kicking as they say in the UK

Off topic again but was "Jaguar the Legend" the old Toleman Cougar?

This was a Don Shead designed boat although I don't know what UK yard actually constructed it

[Black_Tornado]

[QUOTE=cfun;148714]Thank you, that's quite a list are all these people still alive and kicking as they say in the UK

Instead that's quite is a list with several people living in better life as we say in Italy.:hugegrin:

[FLYING FISH]

E.Polli`s `SDA` CUV41 was S.Casiraghi`s `Sun International`.Boat ended up as `Thuraya` in P1.
`Jaguar the Legend` was ex `Toleman Group`,built by Saltshaker in America.It only did one race in U.S. (Bacardi) and came 6th.

[cfun]

This may be a stupid question but why build Jaguar the Legend in the USA unless Don Shead was looking to capture the lucrative American market along with Toleman and Toleman ended up owning a share of Cougar with Clive Curtis so why use a Shead design or was there an unknown tie up between Cougars designs and Shead design's which somehow I just can't believe would happen, but cougar have also made boats in the US haven't they?

Must admit I always thought it was Gerv's boat and not built for Toleman originally

[FLYING FISH]

Can`t give you a straight answer `cfun` on the politics on Toleman`s shead mono.I don`t think it crossed my mind at the time to ask what the hell was going on there! Too busy rashing out superyachts.Toleman had the Bertram as another variation on his runners,so maybe he was just playing the field.

[cfun]

Toleman back then must have been a godsend for powerboat racing in the form of increased media profile coming from the glamour of F1, he must be one of offshore's most famous names to regularly compete or am I wrong

PS ... off course outside of the bandit:hugegrin:

[FLYING FISH]

Toleman was probably the last of the stalwarts of OP1 when big boat racing was running out of steam in the UK,before the 30 boat fields of the Italian circuit came into being.The one thing I will always remember is that if it wasn`t for his presence,then we would not have had all those Video Vision tapes of the racing in the early eighties.VHS had just arrived,but prior to that it was Beta or those monster Philips tapes on N1500 machines,and before that 16mm film.The yanks use to charge £100 for 12 minutes of 16mm film of the U.S. races,so that was a no no.

[littlenige]

Graham, sorry to dig this one out! I just came across this Nooxy hull (cat). Do you know the deal? CUV cat yes?? Totally unsuccesful? It looks like one of your shots but I just looked through your library again and it's not there! What's the story?

[FLYING FISH]

Pic is from a CUV book.
Design by Advanced Design Group,41ft,1985.
I have no record of it racing.
This is Marco territory.Send up a flare.

[Black_Tornado]

The ghosts come back occasionally.
In what that Graham wrote right I can only add that the Advanced Design Group created specifically for this 'memorable' project included the designer of the hull-the engineer Stefano Rossi and the deck was designed by the son of Angelo Spelta, Damiano that shortly undertake a more satisfying career as a offshore driver.
The boat was ready to race in Montecarlo in 1985 but the rough sea conditions made the Spelta opt for their mono 38'.
The cat then run in Saint Tropez where was confirmed the doubts of the tests,lack of portance of the tunnel could never exceed 75mph.
The boat I think was scrapped.
I suspect that Rossi to design the cat has inspired by the "Jackie S"(1967) of Savundra or the "News Of The World" of Twiss that Graham remember well.
I do not understand how there can notice it already in the planning stages that a boat will be effective or not in water.
Then they spend money to build, paint and rigged.
Then he gets a call and we realize that the wing does not do his duty .... stories of ghosts or Lochness monsters like these the offshore world is full.
Remember for example the cats of Molinari for Niccolai and that of Seebold for Cosentino both at the Worlds in Venice 1979,then there was that of Corbelli and his ridicolous trimaran etc etc.
I think that one day we must dedicate a thread to the monsters & co..

btw; Hey Nigel pull out your avatar that we can see better. I think is an interesting your thing back in the day...

[olli]

...I think that one day we must dedicate a thread to the monsters & co...

Yes please!

[littlenige]

God look at that tunnel! No wonder it didn't run well! I agree - a monster thread would be good!

Marco . as requested - one of my posters I created as a kid for the '79 race when I was 15! PLus another but I can't remember which year it was for! I put the posters in our lounge window in Belle Vue Road, Cowes where I grew up!

[Black_Tornado]

God look at that tunnel! No wonder it didn't run well! I agree - a monster thread would be good!

Marco . as requested - one of my posters I created as a kid for the '79 race when I was 15! PLus another but I can't remember which year it was for! I put the posters in our lounge window in Belle Vue Road, Cowes where I grew up!

Nigel thinks the same year 625 miles south-east my friend Nicola prepared for me this report of the just ended 'our' race at Viareggio ....:cool:

[Ben]

Dam'n Nigel, you were a good artist! At age 15 I couldn't and still can't even draw flies.

[littlenige]

Hey Ben if the paper's thin enough..........................

[pete60]

It's not really clear to me from this thread but did the Dry Martini (ex Alitalia) run by Guido Niccolai in 1979/1980 go to Renato Della Valle in 1981?

I have a picture of him in 1981 in a boat which has the low deflector set up, like Dry Martini, rather than the bigger angled screen/deflector common on the later CUVs. I also thought that this boat was the ex Dry Martini and the screen/deflector was altered after 1981.

And what happened to Niccolai that caused his racing activies to abruptly cease?

[Black_Tornado]

It's not really clear to me from this thread but did the Dry Martini (ex Alitalia) run by Guido Niccolai in 1979/1980 go to Renato Della Valle in 1981?

I have a picture of him in 1981 in a boat which has the low deflector set up, like Dry Martini, rather than the bigger angled screen/deflector common on the later CUVs. I also thought that this boat was the ex Dry Martini and the screen/deflector was altered after 1981.

And what happened to Niccolai that caused his racing activies to abruptly cease?

You are right. You can see the versions in the Graham Library.
Della Valle bought the old 38' of Niccolai after the his successful debut in the offshore competitions at the Viareggio-Bastia-Viareggio in 1981.
So with the colors of the sponsor, the TV network Canale 5 of his friend Berlusconi Della Valle trips to England, then the boat was returned to Viareggio for a re-lift at the CUV and was ready in few weeks then being sent in Florida just in time for the Worlds at Key West with the colors of the new sponsor Rothmans.
About Niccolai for that year in october was arrested then imprisoned on chargesand for having used for personal purposes (including offshore races) large sums of money-about 40 billion- from the bank Steinhauslin of Florence of which he was board member.
The evils in Viareggio said that Niccolai would continue to follow his beloved Viareggio-Bastia-Viareggio from the slits of the old prison-fortress island of Gorgona.

[pete60]

Thank you Black Tornado. Offshore racing and criminal activities are often connected!

Can you tell me about Miura (Alberto Petri)? Was this a new boat?

[Black_Tornado]

Thank you Black Tornado. Offshore racing and criminal activities are often connected!

Can you tell me about Miura (Alberto Petri)? Was this a new boat?

You know Pete60 offshore racing requires a lot of money and those who has sweated for them they must have passion to invest in this sport.
However, about Niccolai of passion he had and it was pure, I can tell you this.
As for Miura of Petri was a new 38' rigged by Franco Statua during the winter of 1983-84 in the former site of Navalconsult of Petroni who had been the base of Smania until 1983.
I have an anecdote about the controversial owner-driver Italian-Argentinian producer of coffee Alberto Petri and it was told by the same Statua.
During the last race of the 1984 World Championships in Viareggio,the sea was really rough and they had to go in Gorgona after a first course along the coast. So it was the course of Viareggio-Bastia-Viareggio race in half.
While the Miura faced the waves towards the island of Gorgona Franco Statua that was busy finding the right setting with the trim and throttled noticed that Petri at the helm in the center of the cockpit was waving something.
Petri was in a absolute panic and Statue lifts his visor to hear what he was saying. When he realized he wanted to go back to Viareggio abandoning the race Franco that had lived the experience of the memorable Cowes-Torquay-Cowes in 1971, showing fists to Petri shouted that everything was under control and that would go up in Gorgona at all costs otherwise would split the face with a fist through the visor.
They went and won the race and world title.
Petri after on the podium posed for the photos all proud with the laurel wreath and with side the organizer of the World Cup Petroni,who was the protagonist of the 1971 CTC with Statua and Bonelli(injuried).
I wouldn't like to see the status of Petri's suit when he returned to the hotel.:no:

[Ben]

Hey Ben if the paper's thin enough..........................

You made a good job of it. My tracing was crap.

[pete60]

Thanks Marco for the inside information. As usual, you are a font of knowledge!

What became of Miura? Was it one of the CUVs running around a few years ago in P1?

I have a real soft spot for the CUV hulls. It's a shame that none of them ever ended up in Australia. I think they would have been right at home in the Australian conditions.

[Black_Tornado]

Yes, for several years the boat modified in the deck raced again.During the nineties in Endurance Trophy and then after 2000 in the new born P1.
This is the most recent image I have of the boat, 2007. I think that it is still there.
The only time you could have seen a CUV 38' in action could be at the World Championships in Melbourne in 1980 but the Italian driver of the OP I class gave up costly travel.
The CUV were generally little exported abroad. There was one case in the U.S., one UK and one more recently one in France, the latter then returned to be the original Cinzano in 2009.

[FLYING FISH]

The CUV were generally little exported abroad. There was one case in the U.S., one UK and one more recently one in France, the latter then returned to be the original Cinzano in 2009.

1986 Auckland Worlds - Della Valle (Eberhard & Co) + G.Repossi (Nooxy),is about a close as a CUV got to that part of the world.

[Black_Tornado]

1986 Auckland Worlds - Della Valle (Eberhard & Co) + G.Repossi (Nooxy),is about a close as a CUV got to that part of the world.

That time in the calm bay of Auckland Spelta-Diridoni-Repossi had a bad accident with the fastest 38' became unstable with the Arneson.
A year later the same "thrill" he had to prove the son Damiano Spelta with the same boat.

[Mikko Oikari]

http://web.mac.com/jpaikos/iWeb/Site/Boat.html

[littlenige]

Great link Mikko! Thanks for posting.

[alice]

whats the yellow boat next to it,i was thinking a coyote like the old beep beep

[olli]

whats the yellow boat next to it,i was thinking a coyote like the old beep beep

32299

[alice]

beep beep

[ratman72]

Hay Mikko, I'm intrigued, where we're those photos taken, Sweden, Italy or France?

[Mikko Oikari]

Hay Mikko, I'm intrigued, where we're those photos taken, Sweden, Italy or France?

Can't say. Found the link on the internet some time go.

[ratman72]

Thanks Mikko, does anyone out there know?