US boat builders ??

[Admiral P. Brain]

think this question aimed at our US friends got lost on a previous site....


Which is the toughest built, best riding rough water hull your side of the pond??
In the 24-36ft range, new or old...
Cigarette, sonic, warlock, pantera, formula, apache, fountain, sunsation, active thunder, DCB ??

whats your view on stepped hulls compared to non stepped?? in terms of speed and handling/safety ??

[Captain Chaos]

C'mon APB, Glastron Carlson is the only way to go!

Especially a '78 vintage in metalflake gold with brown & cream piped seats.

They may frisbee like a good'n, but grow a hanldle-bar tash and no-one would question your porn star credentials:banana:

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
think this question aimed at our US friends got lost on a previous site....


Which is the toughest built, best riding rough water hull your side of the pond??
In the 24-36ft range, new or old...
Cigarette, sonic, warlock, pantera, formula, apache, fountain, sunsation, active thunder, DCB ??

whats your view on stepped hulls compared to non stepped?? in terms of speed and handling/safety ??

The answer has to be the Kissin' Cousins..Cigarette and APACHE
Sonic has as great hull as well as Pantera
But, the best rough water boats are just outside your catagory...which is the Cigarette Top Gun and the 41 APACHE.
The 36 APACHE is a newer and shorter version of the 41
and the 35 Cig is either a Cafe Racer or a Mistress(which is what I own)

Fountains are extrememly quick with less HP and steps have increases that efficiency.
Steps in hulls have less wetted surface therefore much faster than a conventional v hull,although,can get squirrely if you do not know how to drive them....
as usual..just my 2 cents

[Admiral P. Brain]

yes the top gun is my favourite boat!!
theres a mistress over here a early 80's i believe with 575's in.

can you post some pictures of yours??

The Apache looks cool I had a good look at them at the Miami boat show, met some guy called Eric who said he wouldnt sell a 28 unless it had min of 600hp !! nice style!!

[cashbrain]

:D

[cashbrain]

Btw...the person you met..ERIC...was Bobby Saccenti's partner.
Bob was the founder for APACHE...

[cashbrain]

ANOTHER

[cashbrain]

The dash:D

[Jon Fuller]

Nice! ...what power?

[cashbrain]

twin 500's...

[cashbrain]

Here's my old ride on a COPS run...

[Scottb]

I agree with Cashbrain but would like to add that in the 24 -28 range it is tough to top the pantera. Great rough water boat and a lifetime warranty on the hull and deck even if you race it

[Scottb]

Here is a link to there websitePantera (http://panteraboats.com/)

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by Scottb
I agree with Cashbrain but would like to add that in the 24 -28 range it is tough to top the pantera. Great rough water boat and a lifetime warranty on the hull and deck even if you race it

I agree...I know Pepe and Jo and they are great people to do business with and really know how to build a boat...
Here's another that can't be beat..a 28 CIG/SBC'S..and my first Cig

[Jon Fuller]

There's a really ancient 28 cig over here that's been converted to a kind of open sports/fisher, 2xSBC also, they shoulda left it alone tho! will try and get a pic of it to post.

[Jon Fuller]

yup

[Tony Davis]

Wot, this one? I posted this pic a few months ago on Speedwake, and the majority of opinions were that it's a fake!!

[cashbrain]

Definitely a fake...

[Jon Fuller]

We best make some stickers for the side of this fake! (Cashbrain, we don't like 'fakes' here! lol

[Scottb]

The sticker is even wrong

[Admiral P. Brain]

Cashbrain
nice pictures, nice boat!! whats a 'COPS' run ??

[Canada jeff]

Here's our 36 Apache for ya's. 2000 with twin Merc 575's!

[Canada jeff]

Another.

[Admiral P. Brain]

great looking boat Jeff... i want one !!
how does it compare against the sunsation you own?? quality wise?

[Jon Fuller]

VERY VERY NICE!

Who built this?...not trying to start a debate, just interested.

[Admiral P. Brain]

think it was that guy bob saccenti...

[Captain Chaos]

why cant brit manufacturers pull their fingers out and build somfink like that?

[Canada jeff]

Yah Bob built this one.

Admiral, not sure I can answer that. I havn't spend as much time it dads as I would like to. He hasn't put many hours on it either. As for my Sun, it has stood up well! And I'm sure this Apchee will be around for some time.

The grphics on it arn't what I would have gone with. Dad resurched many old Apache designs and came up with this combination. First off I would have ran the arrow to the front, instead of stoping it where it is.

We also had to buy some drive spacers to lower the X dim. We could bearly get on plane when she was new. Droped it 1.5 inches and it now works awsome.We can trim higher, carries the nose better too. I think Bob was trying to squeese every mph out of her he could. They proped it at lake X.

[darexms]

mmmmm..............

...........superchargers.................

..........mmmmmmmmmmmm

:worthy:

[jw.]

Impressive. Cool.

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
Cashbrain
nice pictures, nice boat!! whats a 'COPS' run ??

COPS stands for Chicago Offshore Powerboat Squadron..that is the Club I started in Chicago about 3 years ago...
Here's the link...
CHICAGOOFFSHORE.COM

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by jon fuller
VERY VERY NICE!

Who built this?...not trying to start a debate, just interested.

lol....That's a Bobby Saccenti piece...he built all of the 36's

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
Cashbrain
nice pictures, nice boat!! whats a 'COPS' run ??

Here's a few more...

[cashbrain]

41 APACHE

[cashbrain]

33 Fountain Executioner...boat was called.."The Preacher" after a televengelist bought it and subsequntly went to jail..
With t/900's, Boxes and #5's..this boat will do around 110

[cashbrain]

another 36 APACHE..
Look close..I'm in the back:brown:

[Admiral P. Brain]

Great photos!! 110mph in a 33 footer... amazing!!
puts our boats in perspective somewhat !!

although if it wasnt for our govt's fuel tax levy, sure we would have some boats like that still running over here!!!

[Jon Fuller]

Those 36's are sweet!

110 is awsome, but I really don't like those Fountains, they look like 60's/70's kick backs to me, and that beak is plain fugly. just my opinion. (in fact that's bull shit, coz there's plenty of 70's styled boats that are simply gorgeous, the Apache 36 for example, so I guess I just think beak boats are fugly.)

[cashbrain]

Here's a few more from COPS runs...
This is a 32' Active Thunder/owner is Active Thunder Todd

[cashbrain]

A 41 APACHE..the only stepped hull APACHE..Scott Grady is the owner..he also is the prinicipal of CHIEF Powerboats with Bob Saccenti( and also a good friend of mine !!)

[cashbrain]

Jon..
Here's one for you..MR. Cig on a COPS RUN.
it's a 38' Flatdeck Cigarette/ 85? with 540's

[Jon Fuller]

Nice!

I take it this pic is the infamous Lucy?

[Jon Fuller]

PS. have you 'left' OSO?

[cashbrain]

Yes..the boat actually belongs to Magnum Mark
It is a full stagger,race lay-up boat..it runs a true 93 mph

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by jon fuller
PS. have you 'left' OSO?

Yes, I have..for many reasons..

[Jon Fuller]

Pray tell!

[cashbrain]

From my site...


Case of Steve Schuble

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As many of you know, I was an ardent OSO follower/supporter and waged more than a few battles on OSO including the APACHE saga. Unfortunately, my tenure with OSO came to a quick halt and I still have no idea why. Here is the exchange that was the reason for my getting banned in it’s entirety:
My first email:
Steve(or moderator)
I received an email from MS PATRIYACHT that the War Party thread was moved to APACHE Owners forum...just for future reference...my events are not-for-profit. I would like OSO's support as I have given to OSO in the past...please make a note of this.
Thanks,
Jack

OSO'S response:
It is addressed to Apache people, therefore it goes in Apache. If it is a Poker Run it belongs in Poker Run section. And I think Steve would like his www.warparty.com url back since you are no longer involved with Apache.
Titos

My response:
What???First of all this event is for ALL boats..not just APACHES and it is not addressed to just APACHE people and second..APACHEWARPARTY was given to me..has nothing to do with any of my involvement with APACHE...what's with this??? INTERESTING....It's ok for me to support OSO, but, when I need support I get pulled when I try to do an event?


OSO:

It was given to you based on your involvement with apache at the time. Now we see how you operate. Your thread is an invitation to Apache owners and was requested to be moved to the Apache section by Mr. McManus himself. Sounds like you need to advertise your event like the others do.
T

Me:
EXCUSE ME...YOU SEE HOW I OPERATE???WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN???WAY OUT OF LINE HERE...I have done nothing wrong at all and this is not cool...and btw..apachewarparty was NOT predicated on my involvement with apache...period

OSO:

Did you get the URL from Steve? Thought so

Me:

yup..he gave it to me...end of story....I still want whatever explanation on how I operate

OSO:

Your right end of story, see what we are gonna give you.




Keep in mind that WARPARTY was not only and APACHE event, it was a COPS event and an OSO event…Steve told me he was attending the event.
I called immediately after a flurry of emails with Tito…I have yet to get a phone call back from Steve. I also emailed him and to no avail…he has never bothered responding to this day.

Judging from various the information that I have received and the emails that have gone back and forth…the water becomes even more murkier.
To make one thing perfectly clear, I like all the people on OSO..sure I have had my differences, but that is what makes the world go round. My problem stems for Steve Schuble and his staff.
It is, indeed, unfortunate that Mr. Schuble has taken the low road and attacked me when I had no defense. I could not respond to any accusations because he changed my password. If that is not banning, then what is ??. And I quote from Steve’s post:


For the record no one has been banned from the site in the past couple of weeks. Time outs are a different story.

AND…


For the record what happened this week was not a money issue, it was an issue of following the Rules when you are a visitor somewhere. Once you have outwarmed your welcome than it is time to move on.


I don’t know what “outwarmed “ is..maybe I’m just a little thick

So, In essence Steve lied about my status…there was never an intent for a time-out…just a straight out ban..

Now , as far as the reason why I was banned…that is even more confusing..


Here are excerpt’s from Steve’s posts and a few of the emails that went around…
Steve posted..
Sorry, but it is not about money at all. Certain threads belong in certain sections and we decide where they go. We have many people interested in advertising on the site. It is about Rules and following them as Craig 223 stated. We are tired about hearing about threats from attorneys. When you go for the jugular our approach is to stay clear.

AND…

For the record what happened this week was not a money issue, it was an issue of following the Rules when you are a visitor somewhere. Once you have outwarmed your welcome than it is time to move on.

But, Here is what they wrote to an OSO member

From: Offshoreonly [mailto:offshoreonly@offshoreonly.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 2:28 PM
To: *******
Subject: RE: War Party

It starts off with an invitation to Apache owners. If Jack wants to promote a Poker Run that he will most likely profit from then he can pay to advertise it. Like Smoke on the Water and New York Poker Run do.
OSO

AND…

This is what the thread reads:
“I would like to extend an invitation to all APACHE owners for a weekend of boating and festivities.”
This belongs in the Apache section.
You pay to see pictures and use advanced features of the board, registration to read is Free. Events in the Poker Run area are listed as new threads can not be started without being a paying member so indirectly for the limited exposure they get they are paying.
www.warparty.com used to belong to Steve of OSO and Jack asked for it. I don’t see him even offering to give it back now that he is not involved, maybe that is why the attitude. Jack can not come on this site like he owns the place.
OSO-Titos

Now, a few things to straighten out…
Steve called me..I never called him, a year ago, December, when the deal was just evolving with Thad, Bobby, and myself. I was in my lawyers lobby (weird how you remember these things) and my cell phone rang..it was Steve and we talked about the APACHE saga and he offered the APACHEWARPARTY.COM url as he had taken it upon himself to register the name……Steve knew that I was planning an event to promote APACHE and that was the last conversation I had with him about the name. If Steve wanted the name back, all he had to do was ask. Instead, Steve’s lacky, Tito, decided to have an attitude with me. A cheap shot out of left field, at best.
A few other items that Steve attempted to discredit me with was the membership…
Steve posted that I never paid for a membership….how did I become a Platinum member, then? I charged it on my credit card.
Another lie by Steve…I supposedly told people not to renew their OSO membership.
Steve’s Post
It has been brought to our attention that someone might be starting a new website for you all and is encouraging you all to not renew your membership. If this is the case we certainly understand that you will do what you need to to as a group or individuals.


Really? I have tried to figure out what I would gain by people not going to OSO…another immature slam on Steve’s part. Why wouldn’t people visit OSO and other sites as well? I fail to see the reasoning behind this lie. Not once did I tell anyone to not renew their membership. It is position that people can go to and join any site they want to..it’s a free country, that is, of course if you are not on OSO.As a matter of fact, I have a link to the other sites on this site encouraging people to go to the other sites.
The most childish of things that were done was Steve eliminated all of my posts off of OSO..try to find one. The Cigarette thread has GLH as the starter…that was one of the most voluminous threads on OSO and I started it..Steve removed all of my posts from the site.

In my final email to Steve, I asked him to take down the COPS forum, because , I could not defend myself. I withdrew my permission for him to use the name of the club that I started…you’ll notice that it is still there.
Oh yeah, one other thing..I had an idea for a site when this all evolved and a friend of mine talked me out of it…end of story,I thought.I didn’t know I was doing a site until Steve told me I was…so here it is…
Bottom line, Steve has waged a war against me for some apparent reason that escapes me and many others. I was a staunch OSO supporter all along, including OSO in all of my events including at the announcement of Chief Powerboats( look at the pics and you will see the banner) My thanks from Steve has been that he has lied about me, covered up, fabricated stories, and tried to discredit me. Your board God status has gone straight to your head , Steve…
In all fairness, many people contacted Steve to get me back on the board. None of you knew that I had kicked around the idea of a board and you extended yourself, exposing yourself to the wraith of Steve’s childish vengeance. Again, it wasn’t until Steve posted that I was doing a board, is when the idea took shape. I thank each and every one of you for your help, but, unfortunately, you were talking to a spoiled little boy that couldn’t care less about anybody.

In closing, I find it unfortunate that this situation has evolved the way it did. Steve didn’t hurt me, he hurt the people in COPS that have grown to be friends over the last few years. By taking away my ability to convey information, Steve attempted to destroy the club.
How’s that for helping out the Offshore community…
But, now, we have a voice, a response, and I hope my hard efforts will sustain to make not only a great club, but, a great site as well.
Thanks, Steve…you did me a favor !!!

[Jon Fuller]

Well there ya go! I don't visit OSO anymore, mainly on the grounds of the subscription being both too high, and rather confusing! I would have happily carried on as a gold member (not austin powers) at 25 bucks a year, but not 50, just on principle.

I think a lot of people are leaving on the same grounds, Offshore powerboat.com will soon be a major competitor, then you can tell em to feck off! :moon: :booty: :pirate:

[cashbrain]

Thanks Jon...

[Canada jeff]

Should check out my favorite site speedwake.com . Good people, not a pissing match.

[jackeen's Missus]

Bejaysus cashbrain sounds like you had a very hard time...I got all confused reading about it but it seems to me we should thank our lucky stars that we have a kindly and benign dict/administrator in the form of JF

Missus ;)

[cashbrain]

YA'KNOW...THOSE DAMN YANKS!!:argue: :D

[jackeen's Missus]

I'd never even think anything like that now myself...

Anyway you're putting up lots of grand pictures and the place is lookin lovely since you arrived so hope you stay around. We're very international here you know

Missus:D (Top of the mornin to you)

PS Are you into RIBS at all (at all)?

[cashbrain]

Thanks for the compliment...anything special that you would like to see??...if I don't have pics,one of the other members do.

On your other question..the only RIBS that I have seen in the Chicago/Great Lakes region are tenders...nothing all that large.
and BTW....Missus...when are we going to see you shining face on OFFSHOREPOWERBOAT.COM ???:hugegrin:

[jackeen's Missus]

Don't take any notice of Matt Mr. Brain. He's getting an Avon next I believe...

Yerra anything at all would do...just to see what the American RIBS are like...

Yes my husband and I will pop over but I have to fill in all the forms before reading stuff and that takes me a while...

Hope you're looking after the gArfish for us. Don't take him too seriously. He fell on his head as a youngster,

Take care now,

Missus Shiny

:D

[jackeen's Missus]

Hmmmm

Never know when you're being serious...

Missus

[cashbrain]

A few more wake-up pics....

[cashbrain]

Bull Roar..my favorite..imagine a 36 APACHE being a tender

[cashbrain]

One of my all time favs...Dragon's Breath..now sold and re-painted:frown:

[cashbrain]

The very first APACHE...a Squadron
Last one for tonite...

[Admiral P. Brain]

cool plse keep them coming.... that black tender is my favourite!!

[Canada jeff]

WTF is a tender? I thought I knew all the slang?

[cashbrain]

Here's a 22' APACHE tender...

[Canada jeff]

O.K. so a Tender is a boat on a boat! Got it.

[cashbrain]

NO...well..yes..it's a boat to get to a larger boat ..or to shore.When larger vessels can't dock,they have a tender for transport..in this case,it's a 22' APACHE...
But,BULLROAR is a 36' APACHE for a 300' yacht..here it is

[cashbrain]

one more

[Canada jeff]

Black is wicked, when its clean! Oh, but it should come with No STEP stickers all over it. Can you say HOT!

My last boat was solid red, inside and out, and it was hot! Can't imagine all black!

[cashbrain]

It has an Ostrich interior...

[Spelunker]

Originally posted by cashbrain
Here's a 22' APACHE tender...

Jack,

The "Tender" on M/Y CHAMAR is a 28' with twin Yanmar LP6's on Bravo's. The yacht is a 300' German built - aluminum.

The home for "Bull Roar" is a 195' Feadship.

Best regards,
Eric Froberg

[cashbrain]

Thanks for straightening me out Eric:cheers:

[Spelunker]

Hope your doing well Jack. This site wouldn't send back a confirmation email for my real name.

[cashbrain]

Jon,

Eric was the person that you refered to in your earlier post. Eric was Bob Saccenti's partner and built all of the 28's and the 36's(and probably a few others that I am missing).
If anyone has intimate knowledge of these boats,Eric does.

Everything is great Eric...ru coming up to SOTW?

[Admiral P. Brain]

Its was me that asked the question...
Hi Eric, I met you on your stand at the miami boat show 2002, think it was one of the few days it has ever rained!!!

You were going to show me a local 28 with big power later in the week, but i believe someone stole the drives!!

I remember you saying you were putting twin yanmars in a 28...
How did it run?
Do you have any photos?
cheers

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Spelunker
Jack,

The "Tender" on M/Y CHAMAR is a 28' with twin Yanmar LP6's on Bravo's. The yacht is a 300' German built - aluminum.

The home for "Bull Roar" is a 195' Feadship.

Best regards,
Eric Froberg

Eric, Hi, and welcome to Boatmad ;)

I too would be very interested to know how that 28 with Yanmars went. You said they were LP6's, but were they 250's (2 valve) or 300's (4 valve)? Also, what was the all up weight?

Ta, JF

[Admiral P. Brain]

my moneys on twin 300/315hp dont think Eric considers fitting these heavy 28's with sub 600hp !!

[Spelunker]

Good morning guys,

Thanks for the welcome. It is a pleasure to come to a friendly forum. I think this “Yank” might be staying a while. Hope you don’t mind.

The 28’ pictured was a definite challenge to build. The parameters set by the owner were; A) It must fit on deck without any modifications to the yacht. B) It must accommodate the current rail lifting system without any mods to the yacht. C) It must be twin 6LP Yanmar (300 HP) diesel. D) It must have a swim platform. E) It must have Air Conditioning, hot water for a shower and a generator. F) It must have at least 200 gallons of fuel. G) It must run 50 knots. H) It must weigh less than 7000# dry. Quite a grocery list for only 28 foot of boat.

First headache was getting a full 28’ (31’ with drives in the trailer position) into a stowage bay of 29’. The 6” of vertical wasn’t really a problem because once up and on the winch locks it is what it is. As long as the Captain had the winch locks set properly everything was peachy vertically thanks to the two piece deck chocks. To accommodate the length parameters the transom was pocketed with an insert 30”. Obviously this created several issues. First, I just shortened the bottom and with the amount of rocker in the 28’ this was not a good thing so shingles were made for the mold to remove some of the remaining rocker. The boat was build exclusively of Kevlar and NidaCore. Another problem created by pocketing the transom in this manner was the engine bay dimensions. Therefore, bulkheads were relocated and the cockpit liner was modified after molding. The swim platform issue was overcome with a hydraulic, rail type, nylon lined platform which used an 18” steering cylinder and extended and retracted into the top of the 30” transom pocket. For AC I used a commercial duty GM marinized system which ran off the port engine. I forget the exact specs for the generator which was also engine driven (pulley and belt) by the port engine. For the hot water I build an insulated 15 gallon aluminum tank with 30’ of coiled ¾” copper inside and plumbed it to, you guessed it, the port engine cooling system. The 200 gallons of fuel was in two tanks. The boat ran 63 MPH and weighed 6800#.

I’ve got lots of pictures of different boat and constructions. If you’d like me to post let me know.

Best regards,
Eric Froberg


The photo shows the NidaCore stringers being set in the hull using jigs.

[Spelunker]

In this photo you can make out the transon jig

[Spelunker]

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
Its was me that asked the question...
Hi Eric, I met you on your stand at the miami boat show 2002, think it was one of the few days it has ever rained!!!

You were going to show me a local 28 with big power later in the week, but i believe someone stole the drives!!

I remember you saying you were putting twin yanmars in a 28...
How did it run?
Do you have any photos?
cheers


Admiral,

This is the 28' I wanted to get you out on

[Spelunker]

Another

[Canada jeff]

Not much of a hull to run on with the transom moved ahead like that? How did the finished product run?

[Spelunker]

Another of T/T M/Y Chamar

[Spelunker]

Originally posted by Canada jeff
Not much of a hull to run on with the transom moved ahead like that? How did the finished product run?

Your 100% correct Jeff. I was extremely concerned about that. However, with the removal of the rocker I was very pleased with the overall handling of the boat. My only gripe was that because of the weight restriction placed on this project, I was not able to establish a CG of my liking. Obviously, with two big diesels in the rear it was without question stern heavy. The boat was very user friendly though, and responsive to both trim and wheel position.

[Admiral P. Brain]

Eric
was upset to say the least that I missed that opportunity!!
cheers

[Jon Fuller]

Eric,

Look's like a lovely build! I take it the Stringer material is similar to divinicel foam?

What is the beam on this boat? I had/have issues with CofG on my Phantom (without 30" of running surface missing), but the Phantom only has an overall beam of 7'! this design was originaly for triple OB's.
It's OK when driving it like your life depends on it, and the centre of lift has moved way aft, in fact I think when driving as if racing, it's wonderful in all but the nastiest sea.

An answer to your problem, and something I'm currently doing to mine, is a bow water ballast tank, I haven't seen them fitted to many US boats at all, but this is a very common fitment over here in the smaller race boats and shifts the CofG fwd very nicely when required. Just a simple cable controlled scoop/dump mounted on the transom feeding a 30-40 gallon tank right in the nose, say beneath the anchor locker.

This gadget totaly changes the behaviour of the boat when used in sloppy conditions, then dump it for flat out speed!

A company over here makes a beautiful cast 316 combined 'pick/up-dump' controlled by a single 33C cable/control box, it's "O" ringed and 'holds' totaly without leakage, so the tank is filled/emptied through the same 1-1/4" pipe into the bottom of the tank (with very large tank vent, say 1-1/2", to avoid bursting!)

Have a look here (http://www.candbconsultants.com/Salmon/BallastValve.JPG)

[jw.]

Eric, are there no adhesion/delamination issues when you're building kevlar on kevlar on kevlar?

Nice clean build though.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
think this question aimed at our US friends got lost on a previous site....


Which is the toughest built, best riding rough water hull your side of the pond??
In the 24-36ft range, new or old...
Cigarette, sonic, warlock, pantera, formula, apache, fountain, sunsation, active thunder, DCB ??

whats your view on stepped hulls compared to non stepped?? in terms of speed and handling/safety ??

Comanche.

[Jon Fuller]

That's some expensive paint!

When do we get a ride?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
That's some expensive paint!


Awlgrip

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller

When do we get a ride?

Spring

[Jon Fuller]

Awsome!!!

What Power/speed?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Awsome!!!

What Power/speed?

Twin 800 HP

I will post a picture of the speedometer at wide open throttle in the Spring

[Speed]

Originally posted by cashbrain
33 Fountain Executioner...boat was called.."The Preacher" after a televengelist bought it and subsequntly went to jail..
With t/900's, Boxes and #5's..this boat will do around 110 I believe that boat runs supercharged 598's and runs 116mph.


I also think this is a subjective question. Everybody has their "favorite" and will tell you theirs is the best.

[Speed]

Originally posted by cashbrain
A 41 APACHE..the only stepped hull APACHE..Scott Grady is the owner..he also is the prinicipal of CHIEF Powerboats with Bob Saccenti( and also a good friend of mine !!) Word is Chief folded.(ie. closed down out of business) Don't know if it's true.

[Speed]

This is a runner if you have a fat wallet and brass balls.


http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/0/9/81038809.htm


http://216.223.162.33/onesite/publishsite/index.cfm?pagename=mainpage_template&client_id=duckysboats&tablename=Gallery&link_id=14332493&linkname=Fountain%2042%20Custom


I talked to the broker and he said it runs 145 mph because they did it. There are several of these boats with the same setup running around.

[Matt]

There was an old man from Madras, Who had balls of fine brass, in stormy weather, they clang together, and sparks flew out of his ass !

Originally posted by Speed
......brass balls.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Word is Chief folded.(ie. closed down out of business) Don't know if it's true.

Chief's phone is disconnected and they don't reply to any post's on OSO............I think they are finished

[Jon Fuller]

I'm not keen on 'the beak', they look really dated to me, and seem to self destruct in any sort of accident, bloody quick tho' they do seem to be!

just My Humble Opinion

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
I'm not keen on 'the beak', they look really dated to me, and seem to self destruct in any sort of accident, bloody quick tho' they do seem to be!

just My Humble Opinion

I agree 100%

[Jon Fuller]

Majorly popular in the US tho' eh!

PS. is the Comanche a modernised Apache 41? (or mebbe a 36)

PPS. see how you can mention 'Apache' on here without world war III breaking out!

[Comanche3Six]

Yes, Fountain is a very popular small water powerboat

[Jon Fuller]

'Small Water' :hugegrin:

[Comanche3Six]

Mark McManus is the owner and builder of Apache & Comanche Powerboats. He builds the finest rough water powerboats in the USA. They are non stepped and 100% kevlar. Here is his latest example...42 Apache

[Comanche3Six]

Tsunami

[Matt]

As Jon says, I've noticed WWIII kicking off on OSO before when apache is mentioned. What's the reason for this?

[Jon Fuller]

That 42 is sweet! Big $$$ tho' I bet!

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Matt
As Jon says, I've noticed WWIII kicking off on OSO before when apache is mentioned. What's the reason for this?

There is a lot of deep rooted ill feelings amongst the Apache people past and present. All of it very well founded of course. Welcome to the jungle!

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
That 42 is sweet! Big $$$ tho' I bet!

McManus does command big $ and is always busy.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Yes, Fountain is a very popular small water powerboat Small water ?? Small water ??:well:

http://www.fountainpowerboats.com/boats/sport/videos/42LTG_vid300.wmv

" "Over the years Fountain Mercury has won more Offshore World and National Vee Bottom championships than all of the largest 100 marine manufacturers combined! Offshore racing separates the men from the boys. In a hurry! It’s the boating industry’s ultimate test of man and machine."

For the past two decades Fountain Mercury has dominated the sport! Once again this past year Team Fountain Mercury dominated both the SBI and APBA offshore racing circuits capturing World and National Championships in the most competitive V-bottom classes; Superboat Vee Unlimited and Superboat Vee Limited. As if that wasn’t enough, we also set World Speed Records in SBI Superboat Vee Unlimited, SBI Superboat Vee Limited, APBA Super Vee in addition to holding the SBI and APBA/UIM World’s Fastest Vee Bottom Record at a blistering 171.883 MPH.


Many of our competitors make false claims about winning World Championships and setting World Speed Records. So to avoid any question as to whose the fastest - we prove our superiority by winning World Championships and setting World Speed Records in front of the major sanctioning bodies.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Small water ?? Small water ??:well:

" "Over the years Fountain Mercury has won more Offshore World and National Vee Bottom championships than all of the largest 100 marine manufacturers combined! Offshore racing separates the men from the boys. In a hurry! It’s the boating industry’s ultimate test of man and machine."

For the past two decades Fountain Mercury has dominated the sport! Once again this past year Team Fountain Mercury dominated both the SBI and APBA offshore racing circuits capturing World and National Championships in the most competitive V-bottom classes; Superboat Vee Unlimited and Superboat Vee Limited. As if that wasn’t enough, we also set World Speed Records in SBI Superboat Vee Unlimited, SBI Superboat Vee Limited, APBA Super Vee in addition to holding the SBI and APBA/UIM World’s Fastest Vee Bottom Record at a blistering 171.883 MPH.


Many of our competitors make false claims about winning World Championships and setting World Speed Records. So to avoid any question as to whose the fastest - we prove our superiority by winning World Championships and setting World Speed Records in front of the major sanctioning bodies.

As long as these races are inshore, Fountaintain with it's light weight and fast bottom will do great. If Offshore racing ever goes back to Open Ocean Racing such as Miami to Bimini and back, then there won't be enough dumpsters available to put all the fountains in.

[Jon Fuller]

My comment earlier, was aimed at the production boats for pleasure use. I thought the race boats were built for Reggie by Skater?

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
As long as these races are inshore, Fountaintain with it's light weight and fast bottom will do great. If Offshore racing ever goes back to Open Ocean Racing such as Miami to Bimini and back, then there won't be enough dumpsters available to put all the fountains in. Don't make me laugh. I guess the offshore races now are all run in flat smooth water? :no:
8 ft seas are 8 ft seas a mile out or 70 miles out. Apaches are slow, overweight and have old technology bottoms. They are has beens living off their their 80's haydays.

When was the last time Apache won anything other than bs bar talk? :lol:lol:

[Speed]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
My comment earlier, was aimed at the production boats for pleasure use. I thought the race boats were built for Reggie by Skater? Nope, you get the same hulls on the pleasure boats that they use on their race boats.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Don't make me laugh. I guess the offshore races now are all run in flat smooth water? :no:
8 ft seas are 8 ft seas a mile out or 70 miles out. Apaches are slow, overweight and have old technology bottoms. They are has beens living off their their 80's haydays.

When was the last time Apache won anything other than bs bar talk? :lol:lol:
A fountain running in 8 ft seas! Not here in NJ. They stay in the small water and polish their inshore trophies and Reggies gold chains.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
A fountain running in 8 ft seas! Not here in NJ. They stay in the small water and polish their inshore trophies and Reggies gold chains. You need to get out a little more.:lol:lol:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
You need to get out a little more.:lol:lol:

I do...Offshore on the Atlantic Ocean, where no Fountains dare to run, cause they have hull failure.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
I do...Offshore on the Atlantic Ocean, where no Fountains dare to run, cause they have hull failure. Really? I live off Virginia Beach and we run OFFSHORE all the time in some heavy snot. (BTW: That's the Altlantic Ocean)
Like I said get out a bit, it'll do you good !

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Really? I live off Virginia Beach and we run OFFSHORE all the time in some heavy snot. (BTW: That's the Altlantic Ocean)
Like I said get out a bit, it'll do you good !

Invest in fiberglass repair kits...I'll look for you when it's rough out.
Ed

[Jon Fuller]

Bloody hell, world war III! :hatchet: :drain:

[Jon Fuller]

Gumball!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bring it on!!!

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Invest in fiberglass repair kits...I'll look for you when it's rough out.
Ed Remember Fountain actually RACES and transfers the race technology to their pleasure boats so they stay together.

My old man used to be the Captain of a Nimitz class carrier years back and I think Apache used the same suppliers. Why? They both weighed the same! :drain:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Remember Fountain actually RACES and transfers the race technology to their pleasure boats so they stay together.


I see

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
I see Last time I checked boats weren't made to go through trees on dry land? :lol:lol:

[The gArfish]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Bloody hell, world war III!


narh. dis iz butt a lowculized skermish. wen thers a wurld wor, de yannks arr orlwaiys lait:laugh:

gArf

[Speed]

Originally posted by The gArfish
narh. dis iz butt a lowculized skermish. wen thers a wurld wor, de yannks arr orlwaiys lait:laugh:

gArf :lol:lol: But we end it!

[The gArfish]

Originally posted by Speed
But we end it!

yus. yewshully bi skidaddlin owt fromm de rewf ov de americun embasy

:duell:

gArf

[Jon Fuller]

I must say, I'd like to think (being polite here) If my boat hit a tree, at speed, given the needle like shape/entry the front end of a boat has, it would 'glance off', maybe a little damage, but not just slice through it like a hot knife through butter! that just don't seem right.

Also, on OSO some time back, there was a beak that hooked and went over on a lake somewhere, and it ripped half the back end of the deck off!...couldn't believe my eyes

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by The gArfish
yus. yewshully bi skidaddlin owt fromm de rewf ov de americun embasy

:duell:

gArf

Ouch

[Speed]

Originally posted by The gArfish
yus. yewshully bi skidaddlin owt fromm de rewf ov de americun embasy

:duell:

gArf Or bailing out our English bretheren from the lock steppers!;p;

[The gArfish]

Originally posted by Speed
Or bailing out our English bretheren from the lock steppers!;p;

lissen upp yew verjiniun powlcat shager

wunce uppon a tyme uz britts rewled harf de wurld. wee didd dis verry wizely(wiv a likkul bitt ov elsploytashun onn de fukin syde)

de trubbul woz de likkul bastuds dat wee woz eksploytin... err. sivilisin wer ungraytful likkul bastuds sow wee reetreeted bakk to ingerland.

de ownly tyme wee cum owt noww iz wen de arjies nead a arrse kikkin orr de yannks arr inn de shitt

gArf

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by The gArfish
yus. yewshully bi skidaddlin owt fromm de rewf ov de americun embasy

:duell:

gArf
Usually by killing the enemy

[The gArfish]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Usually by killing the enemy


noww downt gow getin orl searius yew nobbur.

dis izunt OSO.

:bolt:

gArf

[Speed]

Originally posted by The gArfish
[B]lissen upp yew verjiniun powlcat shager We don't do that here, must be something we left for ? But feel free to continue on over there across the pond. :D

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Usually by killing the enemy Ouch! :hatchet:

[The gArfish]

Originally posted by Speed
We don't do that here

gerrof wiv yer. iyve sean dat filum 'deeliverunse' wiv sirup renolds an jon voyt

i fink yew yannks mus av a bitt ov irysh inn yew orl. i wocht a filum lasst nite corld 'gud fellas'. itt woz orl bowt badd fellas:drain:

verry straynj

gArf

[Jon Fuller]

For the benefit of our transatlantic guests, a 'Syrup' is a wig (toupe). this is Cockney rhyming slang. Syrup of Fig = Wig.

He does of course mean, Burt Reynolds.

I work with Yanks from time to time, and explaining Cockney Rhyming Slang is always great fun,, especially explaining what a 'Septic' is

[verytricky]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Gumball!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bring it on!!! This has been renamed the Blade Run 2006......

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
I must say, I'd like to think (being polite here) If my boat hit a tree, at speed, given the needle like shape/entry the front end of a boat has, it would 'glance off', maybe a little damage, but not just slice through it like a hot knife through butter! that just don't seem right.

Also, on OSO some time back, there was a beak that hooked and went over on a lake somewhere, and it ripped half the back end of the deck off!...couldn't believe my eyes

I don't think it could ever happen again, with all that small water racing technology input going directly from race boat to pleasure boat.

[Comanche3Six]

This is a great place to anchor and cozy up with garfish's ex

[Comanche3Six]

built to handle rough water....Reggie says so

[Jon Fuller]

WTF happened to that last one?

Storm/Hurricane damage?

[Comanche3Six]

More race proven technology....get a dumpster

[Jon Fuller]

Is that a sunroof in the side of that Fountain?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
WTF happened tothat last one?

storm/hurricane damage?

I heard he hit a jetty

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
I heard he hit a jetty

Stop it! :lol:lol:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Is that a sunroof in the side of that Fountain?

That one just delaminated..great build quality!

[Jon Fuller]

On a serious note, that reggie advert that 'speed' posted earlier, had a 42 foot boat with twin 575sci's, and claimed a topend of 85mph!

That seems ever so quick, even for a stepped lightly built boat, at least one of 42', and fully fitted out.

My old racing buddy (TD) and I, used to regularly read the American boat mags, like PB, Hotboat, etc, etc, and fairly regulary, they'd test a boat, and show a tested top speed, that when you worked out the rpm, ratio, prop pitch etc, was imposible, often even meaning there had been 'negative' prop slip, let alone, very low, or unbelievable amounts of slip.

So, how does a boat travel faster than it's theoretical propeller speed?

We always reckoned it was down to the manufacturer spending a lot of money with the testing magazine on advertising, and basically telling the mag what to publish as top speed,who'd write what they weretold, to maintain the business relationship. or are we being foolish/niave?

If we were right, you'd think the tester would at least 'massage' all the data numbers so that they added up!

[Comanche3Six]

This one hit garf in the nob

[Comanche3Six]

Here is a picture of Reggie ready to pin the Congressional Medal Of Honor on himself

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
This one hit garf in the nob
Very good! :well:

I'm not keen on foam core, much prefer end grain Balsa, seems to adhere better. I'm always seeing pics of destroyed boats with massive sheets of foam showing where 'boat' used to be.

I'm even less keen on foam stringers.


You really don't like ole Reggie 'Lycra' Fountain much do you?

He certainly needs a lesson in growing old gracefully!

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller


You really don't like ole Reggie 'Lycra' Fountain much do you?
I like Reggie

[Comanche3Six]

And his brother in law

[Speed]

Wow! Posted pictures of destroyed boats that were in accidents that hit wooden pile drivings and trees etc. sure shows that they can't handle waves! :drain:

Good thing it doesn't happen to Apaches...Oops! Looks like they roll and delaminate on little poker runs! No wonder they don't race their V's!

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90022&page=4&pp=20



http://www.lucidideefastboats.com/images/600_Fountain-Amer_ail.JPG


http://www.lucidideefastboats.com/images/candyman.jpg


You can chime all you want about Fountains but the the race records shows otherwise with the facts.


"At Fountain we compete for one reason: When We Race, We Win. Racing allows us to test our designs, innovations and lamination schedules in extreme conditions that can't be simulated any other way. Racing keys our nonstop Research & Development program.

Most importantly, racing proves our performance superiority, which helps you separate fact from fantasy while making your buying decision. For Fountain owners, offshore racing pays direct benefits. Unlike our rivals, we use the same hull designs and lamination schedules on our race, pleasure and fishing boats. We take our designs to the limit so you don't have to. Racing allows us to find the ragged edge... and then, with time, we move it. Competition was instrumental in the development of our Super Ventilated Positive Lift, pad keel, notch transom bottom design.

Racing has also helped us fine-tune our lamination schedules and to determine where we need added strength and where to look for weight savings. We've worked closely with companies like Owens Corning to develop state-of-the-art fiberglass lamination schedules that are stronger, faster and lighter than anything on the water. Competition has also helped us advance our technology regarding propeller selection, drive heights, seat construction and even dashboard layout. You can theorize on a computer, but there's no substitute for the lessons learned at 170+ mph offshore."

When Apache domintes the Offshore powerboat curcuit get back with me! Until then keep :cry: because that's all you've got!

Oh, Happy New Year!:cheers:

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
And his brother in law Reggie may not dress the best but at least he isn't in federal prison with a life sentence for drug smuggling and murder like the former Apache/racer/owner Ben Krammer!


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=11th&navby=case&no=905055ma2

:drain:

[Speed]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller

You really don't like ole Reggie 'Lycra' Fountain much do you?

He certainly needs a lesson in growing old gracefully! I say you have to hand it to Reggie, I don't know very many 70 year old's setting speed records in 3000 hp boats!

He also does a hell of a job promoting offshore racing and the sport of powerboating in general which helps everyone.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Here is a picture of Reggie ready to pin the Congressional Medal Of Honor on himself And here is former Apache co-owner/racer and convicted drug smuggler and murderer in federal prison.

Nothing like that " Apache heritage"! Makes you proud!
:drain:

[Speed]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
On a serious note, that reggie advert that 'speed' posted earlier, had a 42 foot boat with twin 575sci's, and claimed a topend of 85mph!

That seems ever so quick, even for a stepped lightly built boat, at least one of 42', and fully fitted out.

My old racing buddy (TD) and I, used to regularly read the American boat mags, like PB, Hotboat, etc, etc, and fairly regulary, they'd test a boat, and show a tested top speed, that when you worked out the rpm, ratio, prop pitch etc, was imposible, often even meaning there had been 'negative' prop slip, let alone, very low, or unbelievable amounts of slip.

So, how does a boat travel faster than it's theoretical propeller speed?

We always reckoned it was down to the manufacturer spending a lot of money with the testing magazine on advertising, and basically telling the mag what to publish as top speed,who'd write what they weretold, to maintain the business relationship. or are we being foolish/niave?

If we were right, you'd think the tester would at least 'massage' all the data numbers so that they added up! I posted Fountains chart below. If Fountain lied they would be liable for large lawsuits.


The PR 42 with 525's runs 95 plus mph.

http://www.fountainpowerboats.com/boats/sport/videos/42PR_vid.MPG

and the 35 with 575's...

http://www.fountainpowerboats.com/boats/sport/videos/35LTG_vid300.wmv

[Jon Fuller]

That's an interesting chart!

In the smaller models, 27, 29, 35, the speeds with given power is kinda what I would expect, in fact considering it's a modern stepped hull, some of them seem quite conservative.
We ran just shy of 80 (79.37) in our 26' non stepped race boat, with a genuine 450hp (speed measured by official timekeepers at the national speed records week)

So Reggies advertised speeds in his smaller boats are pretty much in line with this (remember ours was a race boat, so no full cabin etc)

But the bigger stuff, where my experience here would leave me to expect lower speeds, seem amazing! if it's all true, they gotta be a very special running surface, or very light, or both.

I do agree, that you can't take anything away from him when it's he himsellf who climbs into a mono and runs 177mph for marketing, thats definitely worth tons of admiration!! 'hats off', and I bet his insurance company wasn't AT ALL happy about it!

Happy new year.


PS.
Bens looking a bit tubby! no wonder that helicopter couldn't lift him out the prison yard! :speechles (Is that Lucy in the pic?)

PPS.
Don't tell him I said that! :hatchet:

[Comanche3Six]

Speed

Post a picture of your Fountain

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Wow! Posted pictures of destroyed boats that were in accidents that hit wooden pile drivings and trees etc. sure shows that they can't handle waves! :drain:

:

Speed
I can post pictures of broken Fountains all day. Post one of a McManus built Apache that broke like this Fountain due to wave damage. And the reason those other boats are in the trees and pilings and on the rocks shows a handleing problem. That is why Mark Mcmanus will not build step hulls, he feels they are dangerous. Remember McManus built, not Saccenti.
This is some severe damage for just rough water.

[Comanche3Six]

Don Aronow, The king of Thunderboat Row is the father of the 41 Apache. Murdered by Ben Kramer. One of the main reason's WWIII breaks out when you mention Apache on OSO. I for one despise Ben Kramer for this act. Apache now is in the hands of Mark McManus, a man with a fantastic reputation as a boatbuilder and gentleman.

[Jon Fuller]

Is Kramer definitely responsible for Aronow's murder?

I take it you've read the relevant books

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Is Kramer definitely responsible for Aronow's murder?

I take it you've read the relevant books

http://secure.offshoreonly.com/movies/AEDonAronowStory.html


When charged with the murder he plead "No Contest"

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
think this question aimed at our US friends got lost on a previous site....


Which is the toughest built, best riding rough water hull your side of the pond??
In the 24-36ft range, new or old...
Cigarette, sonic, warlock, pantera, formula, apache, fountain, sunsation, active thunder, DCB ??

At the 24' end of the spectrum is the Cigarette Firefox. I can not speak for the build quality of the newer Cigarettes, But 18 years ago they where old school heavy duty roughwater powerboats. This boat does not have a single stress crack.

[Comanche3Six]

Great in the roughwater and tough!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jon Fuller]

That looks very nice!

What power, what speed?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
That looks very nice!

What power, what speed?

522ci supercharged BBC
#3 SSM
82mph

I feel both the 24' Cigarette and 36' Comanche meet the criteria of the question asked

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
think this question aimed at our US friends got lost on a previous site....
Which is the toughest built, best riding rough water hull your side of the pond??
In the 24-36ft range, new or old...


No, they would not be competitive in today's inshore small water racing.
Yes, they are heavy duty non step V bottoms and it takes a lot of power to push them.
Yes, they are of extreme high build quality, built for rough water use, and give the best rough water ride without extreme hull failure like a cheap azz dime a dozen Fountain.
Yes, I own them both and that is my Neanderthal opinion.

Happy New Year

Ed

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
No, they would not be competitive in today's inshore small water racing.
Yes, they are heavy duty non step V bottoms and it takes a lot of power to push them.
Yes, they are of extreme high build quality, built for rough water use, and give the best rough water ride without extreme hull failure like a cheap azz dime a dozen Fountain.
Yes, I own them both and that is my Neanderthal opinion.

Happy New Year

Ed

That's as funny as fkk :well:

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Speed
I can post pictures of broken Fountains all day. Post one of a McManus built Apache that broke like this Fountain due to wave damage. And the reason those other boats are in the trees and pilings and on the rocks shows a handleing problem. That is why Mark Mcmanus will not build step hulls, he feels they are dangerous. Remember McManus built, not Saccenti.
This is some severe damage for just rough water. The reason you can post pictures of Fountains all day is they produce over 500 boats a year! How many Apaches are built a year? How many Apaches are out there? 100-125 total? :lol:lol:

So lets take an average, if Fountain built only three hundred boats a year for 15 years thats almost 5000 boats. That's a ration of 5000-125 or 40-1! So mathamatically you should be able to at least come up with 40 broken Fountains to every broken Apache. I already posted one Apache that came apart in a little poker run! It was twisted, rolled and delamenated, all in flat water! Looks like you are also behind in numbers.

I would also add the picture you posted looks to be a race boat and what was that boat subjected to before it busted? What caused the boat to bust? Race boats are subjected to far more strain and stress than pleasure boats.

As far as the Fountains in trees and rocks you claim it was the step bottom that caused those accidents? How in the hell do you know that? Where you there? Prove it! It's nothing but CONJECTURE on your part. I also don't care what you are driving only a clown would be driving fast enough to stuff a boat near shore or into the trees.

As far as steps, everybody knows steps are more difficult to drive than a non step. There are trade offs. If steps are so dangerous why are 90% of all the boat builders do it? People don't know how to drive them just ask Tres Martin.

Mark Mcmanus doesn't build RACE BOATS he builds pleasure boats! His old 80's technology, over weight sleds would get crushed in the Offshore curcuit.

"The philosophy of performance and craftsmanship is directly applied to the latest offering of Apache PowerBoats. By no definition are McManus Apaches mass produced. Instead, a limited duplicative production of hull designs will be fabricated to maximum construction techniques and overall quality. Customers then have the opportunity to outfit their hulls with a nearly endless list of options, finishing with the powertrain, navigation systems and interior appointments to suit their every want and need. Whether a boat is headed for contention on the Poker Run Circuit or your favorite cruising or fishing waters as a weekend warrior, each McManus Apache is built to be a winning example of technology and craftsmanship."

They aren't even an ISO 900 company. If his boats were so great why is nobody buying them? Cigarette is doing well, Fountain is doing extremely well, what are "Apaches" sales numbers? :zzz:

Like I said show me a recent world champion Apache and then you can talk. Claiming Apaches are so great and so tough is nice when they build nothing but flat bottom pleasure boats. The race curcuit seperates the tough proven boats vs the bs bar talk.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
522ci supercharged BBC
#3 SSM
82mph

I feel both the 24' Cigarette and 36' Comanche meet the criteria of the question asked



No, they would not be competitive in today's inshore small water racing.
Yes, they are heavy duty non step V bottoms and it takes a lot of power to push them.
Yes, they are of extreme high build quality, built for rough water use, and give the best rough water ride without extreme hull failure like a cheap azz dime a dozen Fountain.
Yes, I own them both and that is my Neanderthal opinion.

Happy New Year

Ed Neanderthal it is, that's why you like them, it's 80's technology! Anybody can build a very heavy, non step old school boat nobody is buying that takes aircraft carrier power to get them to go.
Different strokes for different folks is what they say!

[Comanche3Six]

Speed
Pay attention to what the thread is about.

Originally posted by Admiral P. Brain
think this question aimed at our US friends got lost on a previous site....


Which is the toughest built, best riding rough water hull your side of the pond??
In the 24-36ft range, new or old...
Cigarette, sonic, warlock, pantera, formula, apache, fountain, sunsation, active thunder, DCB ??

whats your view on stepped hulls compared to non stepped?? in terms of speed and handling/safety ??

If Admiral P Brain asked "What is the most prolific, poorest build quality, crapcraft that wins all of the inshore races yet comes apart like a 5 dollar watch and has the added bonus of it makes a great deer stand." And you posted Fountain. I would be the first Yank to agree.

Here is a little New Years Story for you. When I bought my Cigarette brand new in July 1987, I launched it in Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey and proceded to run the boat in the bay and ocean. By the end of the summer a single engine brand new 25ft? Fountain used to run with me in these waters. We were in some 3 to 4 footers right next to each other when we all heard a loud crack and the Fountain came to a halt. He opened his engine compartment and there was his engine ripped away from the stringers, also a huge crack in the side of his brand new boat. I am sure you can explain it away, but I will tell you his exact words. "What a piece of chit! I'm fixing this thing and selling it!"
And that is what he did. I am 51 years old and have lived on the Jersey shore my whole life. I know what can run the rough water and it certainly isn't Fountain. They have a well earned reputation for poor build quality. That's one story... I have more but all with the same ending, a broken Fountain.

Here is a pic of me and my friends in 1987 at the Cigarette factory picking up the FireFox. Thunderboat Row, it's gone. Replaced by condo's.

[Jon Fuller]

I have a friend with a Cig 'mistress' in those exact colours.

were you collecting it pre, or post Aronows murder?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
I have a friend with a Cig 'mistress' in those exact colours
That is a great rough water powerboat

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller

were you collecting it pre, or post Aronows murder?

Don was shot before I picked the Firefox up, I think it was within yards of where you see me and my friends in the Cigarette parking lot unwrapping the boat.
Don "The Animal" Aronow
The man who loved rough water. He is probably turning in his grave when he sees the pond racing going on today.

[Comanche3Six]

What Power does the Mistress have?

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
What Power does the Mistress have?

I'm not a Cig expert, so info on this boat may not be correct.

It's quite an old boat, 70's meebe early 80's, it has the older 'flared' bow style of Cig hull, and was built for Spanish a guy. Staggered motors, no cabin etc.
My mate (TD's mate really) bought it in Spain, and shipped it home to re-fit it.

He works in composites, and decided staggered motors used up too much space, so re-built the transom and re-jigged it for side by side motor fitment, expanding the cockpit considerably.

It has #3's , and a pair of 625hp Flagship motors, Dunno if you've heard of em?

[Comanche3Six]

Sounds like they really put a lot of work into that Mistress. It should be a be a nice useable powerboat. Great for bring a lot of people out for the day on the water.
I have heard of Flagship....all good

[Jon Fuller]

I'll see if I can get some pics

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Speed
Pay attention to what the thread is about.



If Admiral P Brain asked "What is the most prolific, poorest build quality, crapcraft that wins all of the inshore races yet comes apart like a 5 dollar watch and has the added bonus of it makes a great deer stand." And you posted Fountain. I would be the first Yank to agree.

Here is a little New Years Story for you. When I bought my Cigarette brand new in July 1987, I launched it in Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey and proceded to run the boat in the bay and ocean. By the end of the summer a single engine brand new 25ft? Fountain used to run with me in these waters. We were in some 3 to 4 footers right next to each other when we all heard a loud crack and the Fountain came to a halt. He opened his engine compartment and there was his engine ripped away from the stringers, also a huge crack in the side of his brand new boat. I am sure you can explain it away, but I will tell you his exact words. "What a piece of chit! I'm fixing this thing and selling it!"
And that is what he did. I am 51 years old and have lived on the Jersey shore my whole life. I know what can run the rough water and it certainly isn't Fountain. They have a well earned reputation for poor build quality. That's one story... I have more but all with the same ending, a broken Fountain.

Here is a pic of me and my friends in 1987 at the Cigarette factory picking up the FireFox. Thunderboat Row, it's gone. Replaced by condo's. Yeah, Fountain builds such "chit" they are the best selling high performance powerboat by far. Why is that? The market place doesn't lie.
Fountain builds such "chit" they DOMINATE the Offshore powerboat curcuit. The race curcuit doesn't lie
Fountain builds such "chit" they are an ISO 9000 company.
Fountain builds such "chit" it is the prefered high performance offshore fishing boat by far.
Not one person I know who owns a Fountain or has owned one ever had any problems with them, period.




So keep rambling on about how great Apaches are but until someone posts a thread asking:
What is a overweight, old low tech, flat bottom, piece of shi# resin bucket a high school votech class could build over two weekends which requires 6000 hp to run 50, Apache won't get my vote. :drain:

Oh and Fountain never produced a 25 ft boat.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed

Oh and Fountain never produced a 25 ft boat.

I knocked off a few feet for the beak.

Post a pic of your Fountain.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
I knocked off a few feet for the beak.

Post a pic of your Fountain. Sure you did.:yawn:

[Comanche3Six]

Nice boat!

[Comanche3Six]

Good Point!

[Comanche3Six]

Beak comes in handy! On a 1 day old boat....

[Speed]

Doesn't look like a Fountain to me.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Good Point! 32 footer with twins, they sit low in the back.

The rear is the only view Apaches ever see of a Fountain anyhow. :drain:

How did those "Mcmanus Apaches" do in the offshore race cucuit this year? :well:

[littlenige]

That´s gotta hurt.........................not that I want to be controversial or anything...........

[Jon Fuller]

Did that blow off in the wind? :D

[Speed]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Did that blow off in the wind? :D Yes, it hit the speed of sound... :lol:lol:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by littlenige
That´s gotta hurt.........................not that I want to be controversial or anything...........

Me either...Here is a pic of the driver

[Jon Fuller]

That's funny!

Nice necklace.

[fish]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Me either...Here is a pic of the driver

Holy chit that's funny!!!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :cheers:

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Me either...Here is a pic of the driver Saw it on OSO and it's not far off...

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Doesn't look like a Fountain to me.
Aside from that...it's a Fountain

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Aside from that...it's a Fountain Doesn't look like one. Proof?

[Jon Fuller]

I have to say, it looks like a Fountain bow to me, they're the only boat where from that angle, you wouldn't see any of the stem/forefoot, you certainly would on a traditional Cig style front end.

Reckon it's a beak for sure.

[fish]

fountain
boat sinking article (http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/news/ptol/features/LACGBaywatch/)

[Speed]

From the one picture it didn't look like a Fountain but the article states it is and you can see in the second picture it is. Wonder what they did to sink it?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Wonder what they did to sink it?
They launched it

[Speed]

Apaches don't win races but they make great sun pads for tourists!
At least the Fountain was offshore and not a stones throw from the beach. :drain:


Check out the "big water Apache"

[Comanche3Six]

Hang on! Let me climb to the top of this ELIMINATOR and look at that fine sundeck.

[Comanche3Six]

Ok I'm on top and scanning with the binoculars......Holy Hell!!! Look at the interior of this Fountain, one of the many submarine models Reggie designed. Still scanning...be patient Speed

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Ok I'm on top and scanning with the binoculars......Holy Hell!!! Look at the interior of this Fountain, one of the many submarine models Reggie designed. Still scanning...be patient Speed Wow a neglected old boat and that represents a boat builder ? :laugh: Let that sunk apache sit around for 10 years an see what you have.

[Speed]

Apaches are so great they must sell the hell out of them, right? :no:

*Is it their offshore racing wins ? :no:

*Their new hull technology? :no:

*Their blinding speed? :no:

But in hurricanes when the wind is blowing at a 45 degree angle and the waves are 36 feet high the Apache will take them all !


:drain:

[Speed]

Look at this baby! Must be the sister ship of the tanning platform! Flipped and sunk! See, I can play the same game.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Look at this baby! Must be the sister ship of the tanning platform! Flipped and sunk! See, I can play the same game.
That's not a McManus Apache....try again!

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
That's not a McManus Apache....try again! Comical! :lol:lol: One minute you are saying how great the older Apaches are the next you are changing your tune.
It's a 1992 build. Who was running the company when that boat was built and where did the molds come from? It's an Apache and it sunk, period, just like the other one I posted.

[Comanche3Six]

Wow! These are great binoculars. What is this? Another member of the Reggie Wolfpack? Yup, did a daffy flip in the air and sunk. Oh well, I guess that's been done before.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Wow! These are great binoculars. What is this? Another member of the Reggie Wolfpack? Yup, did a daffy flip in the air and sunk. Oh well, I guess that's been done before. Just like the Apache wolfpack!

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102271&highlight=sunk+apache

:lol:lol:

How many Apaches were built? How many Fountains?

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Comical! :lol:lol: One minute you are saying how great the older Apaches are the next you are changing your tune.
It's a 1992 build. Who was running the company when that boat was built and where did the molds come from? It's an Apache and it sunk, period, just like the other one I posted.
That powerboat is built by Bob Saccenti, not Mark McManus. Pay attention

[Speed]

Another...

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90022&highlight=sunk+apache

:well:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Another...

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90022&highlight=sunk+apache

:well:
Read my previous post

[Comanche3Six]

Broken Fountains.....Like pebbles on a beach!

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
That powerboat is built by Bob Saccenti, not Mark McManus. Pay attention Pay attention? :laugh:
Oh, only the Apaches built by McManus now count! So all the pre McManus boats which you claim are built so tough, with racing heritage, now don't count!



But for some reason pre McManus boats only sink! :drain:

Oh and what is the greatest Apache ever? You said;

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1576071&postcount=263

That boat, SAM is Hammerhead which sunk in St Tropez! Which is =

[Comanche3Six]

The maid will straighten this right out.........Martha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Speed]

So the greatest Apache EVER, stated by you in your own post, is the one sunk I posted ! How ironic is that! :drain:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Pay attention? :laugh:
Oh, only the Apaches built by McManus now count!
Go back to page 9 of this thread And reread.......McManus Apache

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Go back to page 9 of this thread And reread.......McManus Apache Lets use some logic...

The greatest Apache, YOUR WORDS, ever happens to be a sunken Apache which I posted. (Sam) Man the irony here... :drain:

So who built Sam?
If it's McManus then it sunk.

If it's not why did you say a pre McManus boat was the greatest?

:laugh:

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by Speed
Lets use some logic...

The greatest Apache, YOUR WORDS, ever happens to be a sunken Apache which I posted. (Sam) Man the irony here... :drain:

So who built Sam?
If it's McManus then it sunk.

If it's not why did you say a pre McManus boat was the greatest?

:laugh:

Read the thread and count how many Apaches I posted, go ahead...count 'em. I love 'em. Where is Martha? I guess working overtime cleaning up those Fountains.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115012&highlight=greatest+apache

[Comanche3Six]

Speaking of Fountains...How come you haven't posted a picture of yours?

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Read the thread and count how many Apaches I posted, go ahead...count 'em. I love 'em. Where is Martha? I guess working overtime cleaning up those Fountains.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115012&highlight=greatest+apache And that is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with your double speak. One minute the non Mcmanus boats are the greatest and the next they don't count.

Now answer the question...

Originally posted by Speed
Lets use some logic...

The greatest Apache, YOUR WORDS, ever happens to be a sunken Apache which I posted. (Sam) Man the irony here... :drain:

So who built Sam?
If it's McManus then it sunk.

If it's not why did you say a pre McManus boat was the greatest?

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Speaking of Fountains...How come you haven't posted a picture of yours? Why does it matter? It doesn't and it has nothing to do with this thread. Quit trying to change the subject.

:laugh:

[Comanche3Six]

Speed
Post a pic of your Fountain....surely one pic can't hurt?
Do you own a Fountain?

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Speed
Post a pic of your Fountain....surely one pic can't hurt? Can't answer the question ? Got caught with your weak, phoney argument? Praising older Apaches but when shown pictures of them sunk they aren't "Mcmanus boats" even though earlier they were the greatest! :drain:

Sorry, your "switch the subject" won't work. I also won't post a picture of my house or my dog or the neighbors car.

[Comanche3Six]

Speed
It's my understanding that HammerHead was left out in bad weather and sunk. That is the story on OSO.
I am calling bullchit about you owning a Fountain......Stop dancing, it's foolish.

[Comanche3Six]

The Lord of the dance?

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
Speed
It's my understanding that HammerHead was left out in bad weather and sunk. That is the story on OSO. So? You post pictures of Fountains that have sunk and you have no idea what happened to them either. Nice double standard.



(1) "SAM has#6's and is know HAMMERHEAD and is still in St. Tropez last I knew, it needs a complete restoration. I went there to buy it in the spring of 2004, it was a massive disappointment. So I bought to 41 I always wanted and enjoyed watching race."

(2) "Hammerhead was left like that for a number of days.
The sinking of this boat i am not sure how this happend,there were many
heavy swells hitting the beaches this summer and heavy trafic."

I know what happened to the boat and number #2 is very close.



Originally posted by Comanche3Six
[B].....Stop dancing, it's foolish. Me stop dancing around? :lol:lol: You are the one who got nailed and can't answer the questions.

Bottom line, any boat can sink and anyone can post pictures of them. The more of them out there the more accidents you can find, simple statistics.
Honestly, I could really care less about one boat or another or which is faster or built better or worse. It's like any other object. Everybody has their own preferance just like clothes, cars etc.



Originally posted by Comanche3Six
[B]I am calling bullchit about you owning a Fountain.Hey, I'll burn you again. Show me where I said I currently own a Fountain? (Even though it has nothing to do with the thread)

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
The Lord of the dance? Yes you are!

Lets use some logic...

The greatest Apache, YOUR WORDS, ever happens to be a sunken Apache which I posted. (Sam) Man the irony here...

So who built Sam?
If it's McManus then it sunk.

If it's not why did you say a pre McManus boat was the greatest?


STILL CAN'T/WON'T ANSWER THAT ONE WILL YOU...?
:drain:

[Comanche3Six]

No Fountain?????!!!!!!!

Holy Hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another no credability talker, I thought so. I won't waste any more time on you. You can't run rough water with bullchit.

[Speed]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
No Fountain?????!!!!!!!

Holy Hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Another no credability talker, I thought so. So I have to currently own a Fountain to discuss the facts? How can you talk about Cigarettes or any other boat if you currently don't own one? How can an aeronautical engineer talk about fighters if he doesn't own one? I guess makes you a "no credibility talker"?
Sorry, that third grade argument doesn't hold water.



Originally posted by Comanche3Six
[B]I won't waste any more time on you. You can't run rough water with bullchit. And you can't pass bullchit along, which you have attempted.
Of course you don't want to "waste time", you can't answer the questions. You tried to deflect the debate to some other non issue which has nothing to do with the post because you cannot defend your double standard or your positions.

[Comanche3Six]

Here are a few pics of my Cigarette FireFox....gotta strip and paint that drive

[Comanche3Six]

Stainless grabrail on dash....scientificly matched the radius of the grabrail to that of the dash. My Buddy bent it in the fork of a tree.

[Comanche3Six]

Bolster with hydraulic drop out seat bottoms

[Comanche3Six]

Race hatch......good for a supercharged powerplant

[Comanche3Six]

A great quality rough water powerboat.

[Speed]

And you sold it! So how can you talk about it? :laugh:

[Jon Fuller]

Though I must admit, sunken boats probably isn't the best way of determining whether or not a builder/designer does a good job, as it can happen in any number of ways, including mechanical failure, ie, gimble, internal pipework etc.
For me, evidence of major structural failure when in use (not hurricane damage, or RTA etc) is the way to go, if a boat breaks up in any way in the normal course of 'offshore' boating, summat has to be wrong. I expect to be able to stuff, hook, or capsize a boat at reasonable speed (not like 100+mph, I mean sub 80) and it survive, at least with mininal damage.

For example, do Fountain build their boats with a fully bonded hull to deck join?, I know a lot of the yank 'production' stuff isn't built that way, which is a little scarey, and is i'm sure, one of the reasons we see large sections of boat deck laying on beaches etc.

A guy over here bought a Baja Outlaw 40 (could be 41, not certain), he paid extra for the 'race lay-up', as he'd broken a previous smaller Baja in a matter of days, they said, "we didn't know you were gonna drive it like a race boat, you need a boat from our race division", So, a triple 500 EFI 40 footer, complete with $12K option 'race lay-up' arrived. It has to be said at this stage, that the boat is available with much higher power than this from Baja. It's also important that the owner is a bit of an animal in a boat.

The boat was 3 weeks old when he 'went in' a bit hard with it, not a full on stuff, just a very hard bow-down landing at around 75mph. The front end of the boat folded up, losing it's form, and hooking. The hull and deck had parted company, and of course then the rigidety has all but gone, and loads of delamination and other damage occured. On inspection by a surveyer, the hull and deck were only bonded where it was easy to get at!
:speechles , nasty! Baja settled out of court.

So, this was very poor example of 'race build', and doesn't do much for the perception of the American offshore boats here in Europe, at least not the production ones, and this wasn't exactly a cheap 'n' cheerful production boat, it cost IRO $400k.

Just my observations.

Anyone on here got any pics of Richard Carr's Baja?

[verytricky]

I still dont get how they can produce an offshore boat and not have a foot throttle!

How on earth do you drive when it is rough? One handed stearing wheel? Or is the definition of rough different?

[Jon Fuller]

The whole 'Hand Throttle' thing is very much a traditional thing over there, I personaly agree with you, hand throttling is I think superior when it's a dedicated task, as in a race boat, where you can hold yourself in with one hand (grab handle down the side of the seat, with trim switches within thumbs reach) and the other hand dedicated to the stick, or of course harnessed in when in a canopied boat.
But un-harnessed, one hand on the wheel, the other on the stick, just doesn't fell right to me, and is why I altered my 28 to foot throttle (or hand for cruising).

It's all rather un heard of over the pond tho' and I reckon loads more Yanks would run with foot throttles if they tried it, it feels way more secure, controlable and safe.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by verytricky
I still dont get how they can produce an offshore boat and not have a foot throttle!

How on earth do you drive when it is rough? One handed stearing wheel?

It's a knack either way. I have operated a 20' Cigarette with a foot throttle and it was easy. I prefer the hand throttle. Some race boats actually have a dedicated driver and a dedicated throttleman. That sounds overcomplicated, at least it would be for me. Here is a pic of my Comanche with the race bolster setup, you can see the throttles and helm are set up to use by one or two individuals.

[Comanche3Six]

Since I am a two boat owner, here is the Cigarette set up with a driver side only helm and hand throttle configuration. It is very comfortable and easy to use.

[fish]

glad to see this thread is heading back in a productive direction. As for building with a race layup, I believe it is what the consumer market over here dictates. I agree, why would you not want it all things being equal, but there are lots of folks over here that want an offshore look, feel, sound, but pretty much just drive them from watering hole to watering hole. Since it is more expensive to build it like a tank, I think many of the purchasers would rather pay less for all the look and feel of a race boat, and have money left over for the big gold chains:D :D LOL

I also believe there are folks on both sides of the pond that can break anything no matter how well it is made.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by verytricky
Or is the definition of rough different?
That is a great question!
A lot of individuals, some even without Offshore Powerboats, profess to handle 8' seas on a regular basis. Fantastic
There are some that will run rough water . JE Electric Apache, SC RedHot Apache, 41 Warpaint Apache, Wild Turkey Cigarette Top Gun and a host of others. Some people can really get these Powerboats flying! Here is a great pic of Warpath. I imagine the throttling chores were interesting

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Comanche3Six
A lot of individuals, some even without Offshore Powerboats, profess to handle 8' seas on a regular basis.

Yeah, I always enjoy those comments! I reckon most would shit themselves if confronted with 8' waves at speed, I know I would, it'd be like a wall.

[Foolish]

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
The whole 'Hand Throttle' thing is very much a traditional thing over there, I personaly agree with you, hand throttling is I think superior when it's a dedicated task, as in a race boat, where you can hold yourself in with one hand (grab handle down the side of the seat, with trim switches within thumbs reach) and the other hand dedicated to the stick, or of course harnessed in when in a canopied boat.
But un-harnessed, one hand on the wheel, the other on the stick, just doesn't fell right to me, and is why I altered my 28 to foot throttle (or hand for cruising).

It's all rather un heard of over the pond tho' and I reckon loads more Yanks would run with foot throttles if they tried it, it feels way more secure, controlable and safe.

Even in a "non" race boat i think the addition of a foot throttle would be benificial, i agree most of the time when it's calm "hand" is not a problem but as soon as it gets rough and i still want to play i would prefer two hands on the wheel and the quicker response time with a "foot",

[Comanche3Six]

Originally posted by fish

I also believe there are folks on both sides of the pond that can break anything no matter how well it is made.

That is a fact. A friend of mine and a very knowledgable Apache enthusiast spent a lot of money to travel abroad and purchase HammerHead. A truely fantastic Apache. He was amazed at the poor condition. The owner took him for a ride and hit two boats. I guess you could say he was a little rough. We have seen a pic of it sunk, here is one of it flying sweet. Maybe it will be reconditioned? McManus is the master.

[sinkunit0]

theres been a few times in my 18 where i could not possiably remove a hand from the wheel to back off the throttle or i would off interfaced with the wheel or ended up in the passenger seat. i,m staggered that so few in the states seem to use foot throttle.

[sea-ray 400ci]

I reckon it depends on the apllication. I used to have a Phantom 21 with a Bridgeport 2.5 on it. It would have been unuseable without one. In the dim and distant past i had a really early martian 21 with an old 235 evinrude. This was also fitted with a foot throttle, but at low speeds, or coming up on the plane you couldn't see over the nose. It also wasn't very good if i used the boat for skiing. I reckon if your going to have one, it has to be of the type where both throttle and hand systems are conjoined.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Foolish
the quicker response time with a "foot",

I'm a great believer in the foot throttle system, where one person is doing it all, but I do believe that contrary to what some think, the hand throttle response time is better than the foot, when used in the 'dedicated' throttleman layout, at least I'm able to respond better/quicker when throttling & trimming by hand 'only' (and not driving).

[Dunaruna]

Nice to see this thread back on an even Keel !

[Jon Fuller]

Welcome to Boatmad 'Dunaruna'. What boat do you have in France?