2004 World and European Class 3 Champs

[Cookee]

VIAREGGIO OFFSHORE 2004

WORD CHAMPIONSHIPS Class. 3D (4 ltr.) – 3S (6 ltr.)


EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP Class. 3C ( 2ltr.)

SEPTEMBER 15th - 19th 2004

CLUB NAUTICO VERSILIA

P.zza Palombari dell’Artiglio -Darsena Europa -55049
Viareggio (LU) Italy
Tel. +39 0584 31444 - Fax +39 0584 31447
FEDERAZIONE ITALIANA MOTONAUTICA Via Piranesi, 44/b – 20137 Milano – Italy
Tel. +39 02 701637 - Fax +39 02 70163325
E-mail info@fimconi.it


More details at the end of June - if you want a copy of the PDF file with more details on it PM or email me and I will email it to you.

I have done this event before and if anyone needs any help or advice let me know,

I believe the 2 litre worlds are to be in Sweden this year, although the fuel issue from last year in Norway has yet to be resolved as far as I am aware, and I think that it will be even worse in Sweden as the "Aspen" fuel is more readily available! ............. Ah well.

[Adam]

Who is racing what, where and when this year?

[Cookee]

Dunno mate - I'm doing RIBS and poker runs though!

[Adam]

We are going to do most Nationals in 2 litre and planning to go Sweden. Depends on time and money I guess - both of which I would like more of!

Hopefully do a few other events incl. poker runs with the demo RIB.

[Cookee]

I would clarify the RYA and the UIM's standing on fuel - the Aspen fuel used by the Swedes and Norwegians in Norway at the Worlds was about 100 octane (I think!) -

It was certainly rocket fuel and they even had it delivered in 20 litre barrels - when we said it wasn't pumped fuel they just said they would put a pump on one of the barrels for our benefit!

The RYA, the Italians and the UIM got nowwhere with it but Roy Smith still won and we had a podium in the second race, but if had been flat none of us would have had a chance!

[doug]

lets hope its flat this year then.

[Cookee]

Originally posted by doug
lets hope its flat this year then.

I take it from your comment that you would be happy for the Scandinavians to walk over the rest of the world with thier use of an illegal fuel then?

Have I upset you or are you just being provocative or a :asshole:

[doug]

No you have nt upset me at all but im sure youd agree that "flat " water would be better for my boat.

[Cookee]

You had better get yourself a Swedish or Norwegian tuned engine and some jet fuel then - they had a cat that reckened he was doing 94 mph in the Fjiord - and it looked like he might have been from where I was standing - it didn't last in the rough water though - he stuffed it at well over 70 mph!

[doug]

And hes still got a smile on his face!

Is that Thomas Wrenklers old boat in the back ground and if so how did it go?

[Cookee]

Originally posted by doug
And hes still got a smile on his face!

Is that Thomas Wrenklers old boat in the back ground and if so how did it go?

- And he is the Norwegian UIM rep - I quote " We only use this fuel to stop us blowing the engines up!" So would we if could could run stuff like that but we don't because it's illegal!

He was quite philosophical about the whole thing - he knew the boat was far too small for offshore when it got rough - he just can't help himself and admitted to pushing too hard.

Despite all of the hassle with the fuel they are a great bunch of people who made us very welcome indeed.

I think he ended up on the podium in the end - the UIM book only lists the winners - probably got the results on the website?

[lindeman]

Thomas Wrenkler finished 2nd with fellow Swede Thomas Rosén finishing 3rd...

When it comes to the Aspen fuel, it is 99/93 octane. It is defenately not rocket fuel - the regular unleaded pump fuel (98 octane) is actually burning faster. The problem with regular 98 octane in Norway and most other European countries is the big change that happened to the specs in 1998. The XR2 couldn't really cope with it - and we started blowing up engines. This was defenately true in Scandinavia where the cats are running at more than 7000 rpm over longer periods. What we found out from the oil companies was that they couldn't garantee smooth running of their fuel on the old XR2s. We then changed to Aspen to avoid racing getting much more expensive. I can give you a hell of a lot details about the history behind this :-)

My boat should really have managed stuffing at 70 mph, but some sort of structural failure forced us to retire. (The first time my boat was running ok last year). For this year I have a brand new Argo 23 - the old one was a bit short on the downwind legs...

I was actually running the old boat at 97 mph in a regular offshore race last year, and with an engine that had been set up by Marcus Johnsson (it was his old boat) for Italian fuel - not for Aspen. Aspen did nothing to the speed...

Also for the record - I'm the President of Powerboating in Norway. Eivind Smedstad is our UIM rep in Cominoff...


I hope to see you all in Sweden in August - if I've got the time.


-Morten-

[Cookee]

Morten,

Nice to hear from you - sorry about confusing who was the UIM rep!

Thank you for your and your friends hospitality in Norway, I know from the other teams we were all felt very welcome there and we had a great time - driving down the Fjiord flat out in a race boat and those starts are something I will remember for a long time to come!

As you know we felt that buying fuel in 20 litre barrels does not contitute "pump fuel", and There must have been other differances in the fuel to warrent you running your engines on 100 jets when ourselves and the Italians were running on 90 or smaller jets. The other point is that if we can run on pump fuel then surely so can you! Yes XR2 engines can be fragile, and I think you will find that in the UK we run over 7000 RPM as well, but we don't run with seperate water pickups either.

I would be very interested in what happened about protests from ourselves and the Italians about the fuel as I understand it was going to be sorted out with the UIM afterwards but I have heard nothing else since?

I think we will be too busy racing in the RIB formula 2 class to attend the World championships in Sweden, although I would be tempted to make the trip over as a spectator if I can!

All the best and welcome to the forum (by the way I have a copy of the video - it's great!)

[doug]

Morten

Can you tell me how the silver hydrolift to the left of yours in the picture did in the worlds. Im presuming it was Thomas wrenklers origonally and that its last owner was Thomas smolderen, please excuse the spelling if Ive not got his surname right.

Thanks.

Doug.

[lindeman]

Doug,

the boat left to me is the old boat of Thomas Wrenkler and Thomas Smordalen. C-94 is currently owned by two Norwegian brothers, named Ore. They did not do very well in the championships, but I cannot remember their total placement...


-Morten-

[lindeman]

Nice hearing you had a good time in Norway, specially after all the fuzz about the fuel!

UIM Cominoff had their mid-term meeting this weekend, and they wanted a comfirmation from Norway that the upcoming event world championships will not be run on other fuel than the unleded 98 octane available from the local gas station. This was confirmed by our Cominoff rep.

I think the jet size has something to do with how you set up the engine, but I'm certainly not an engineer, and I only have to refer what others are telling me.

I don't really know the difference between the fuel in UK and in Norway and Sweden, but I know for sure the quality of fuel in Norway is not the best. What we don't like to see, is for competitors blowing up their engines because of poor fuel.

Btw; if you have some friend of yours running a car from the 50s/60s, please ask him if he/she is running on regular, unleaded fuel. I know the answer...

When competing in the Norwegian Championships, boats can be set up with separate waterpickups, but currently no-one is using it.


-Morten-

[Cookee]

Originally posted by lindeman

UIM Cominoff had their mid-term meeting this weekend, and they wanted a comfirmation from Norway that the upcoming event world championships will not be run on other fuel than the unleded 98 octane available from the local gas station. This was confirmed by our Cominoff rep.

Btw; if you have some friend of yours running a car from the 50s/60s, please ask him if he/she is running on regular, unleaded fuel. I know the answer...

-Morten-

Hi Morten,

I thought the Championships were in Sweden this year?

As I understand the leaded fuel situation it makes no differance at all to a 2 stroke as the lead is only there for the valves etc in a 4 stroke?

As far as jet sizes are concerned it would be interesting to know if the "set up" would have to be changed for regular pump fuel?

All the best,

[lindeman]

The 3C championships is in Sweden (Nynäshavn), but we have the 3B worlds...

You might be right about the leaded fuel. Neverless, the change in 1998 really f.... up a lot of the Scandinavian XR2s.

When it comes to the jet size, I don't think they matter that much for detonation - which has been the problem for us. The MON number is very low on the Scandinavian unleaded 98 octane fuel (98 = RON) - it has been measured to be 87 octane for fuel samples. A standard XR2 with no modifications at all can experience detonation from our regular fuel...

-Morten-

[Cookee]

I see forgot about the 3B worlds!

I hear what you are saying about the changes to the fuel, but out of all of the other boats (4 english and the italians) there was only 1 engine problem (me!) and I don't think that was a fuel problem as we ran 2 races on the same fuel!

I hope you get a boat sorted out for this season and maybe see you in Sweden?

[lindeman]

I hope to be running in Sweeden with my new boat as well, preferably on Aspen fuel, allthough my engines are able to run on the poor 98 octane as well. (Please note; with slightly better performance).

My problem is that I'm currently very busy with a project in London, together with lots of things to do in the Norwegian Motorsport Federation. Could someone please give the day more than 24 hours?!

-Morten-

[jw.]

A wee question. Cookee, were you using local pumped fuel?

[Cookee]

Yes we were - had a problem before the start for the first race, changed the powerhead and went out and got third place in the second race, so the fuel was ok for us!

[Adam]

Hopefully the UIM / RYA will give some guidance on the fuel issue - or am I just being un-realistic?

[jw.]

So they're claiming poor local fuel which works fine for others and they're running 100's instead of 90's. Sounds a bit fishy to me. A touch of alcohol perhaps?

[Cookee]

The fuel is actually called Aspen and is allegedly used in Sweden specifically for 2 strokes in comercial applications, we were offered the use of it when we got there but declined along with the Italians and protested its use.

I think someone brought some back to analize it but I don't have access to the results so I couldn't tell you. The fuel is commercially available but only in 20 litre barrels by special order in Norway.

The problem I foresee is that the fuel is more readily available in Sweden, and the regulations are not as specific as they might be regarding fuel - I can't remember the words exactly but they say something like readily available pump fuel, si if there is a pump selling the stuff in Sweden it might make it legal.

I would like to stress that at no time were the Scandinavian teams or organisors hiding any of this and it was all out in the open. The protests were all made and I believe taken in good nature and we shared many beers with the local guys who were very hospitable and I would love to return one day.

[Cat]

Why is it assumed that running higher octane fuel would improve your performance, all things being equal IE no changes to the engine or ignition settings, running the higher octane would most likely reduce performance due to the slower burn.:duell:

[Cookee]

Like you said all things being equal! The only problem I have is that firstly - the fuel was illegal - and secondly - what if things wern't equal? The local organisers refused to run pump fuel saying that it wasn't good enough despite protests from 2 other nations and a request from the UIM!

And lastly why would you think they were all running 100 jets in a standard XR2 and one of the cats ran 94mph (allegedly) in the fjiord?

[lindeman]

You still don't get it Cookee - the Aspen fuel we are running is actually burning slower, and my engine would have performed better with regular pump fuel. I would still have used the same jets (98), in the temperature we had in Tvedestrand. Our experience is that the fuel we are currently using in Norway is not good enough for engines with a compression factor of more than 10, at least that's what the fuel companies are telling us. After the big change in the fuel specs in 1998, we've wrecked more XR2s (even none-blueprintet ones) than ever before - until we started running on Aspen Plus (99/93 octan)

Btw; I was running in excess of 94 mph in the fjord.

-Morten-

[Cookee]

Hi Morten -

Sorry the "alegedly" comment was not addressed to you - it was a joke about another thread with boats for sale claiming impossible top speeds!

Apart from the Swedish teams (not the Optimax ones!) none of the other competitors were running the fuel and as far as I am aware I was the only one with a problem - and that was down to something else (I think!).

I actually believe what you are saying - although if I ran an XR2 on 98 jets I would be followed around by a big cloud of smoke so I don't understand that bit - the only real problem I have with all of this saga is if it is an International race and the local fuel is so bad why not get permission from the UIM to run Aspen?
And why should 2 countries be allowed to run a different fuel to the rest of the world - the issue is not whether it is better or not it is whether it is fair or not.

We only have your word (and I believe you are a fair and honourable man) the there is no performance advantage, but what happens when we go to Sweden or some other country and they have fuel with methanol and alchohol in it and they say that there is no advantage but the boats are running 105mph - are we supposed to accept that in the same way?

[lindeman]

First of all - the fuel was specified in the Advance Program, which Cominoff has requested all organizers to specify. The reason for this is for example South-Africa where only unleaded 95 octane fuel is generally available, which is not perticularly good for the XR2s. This to avoid competitors coming from all over the world, only to find out that the fuel is not good enough for their engines.

We have tried to argue for Cominoff the problems we are facing with the fuel, but with no luck. Please note that the problem is much greater with the cats because of higher RPMs. The problem is that powerboating is one of few motorsports where we are not allowed to use racing fuel, which would guarantee us the same fuel specs all over the world (FIA), and probably save a lot of engines...

Please also note that the world record in 3C is about 100 mph with regular pump fuel.

I know you only have my word for this, but I can assure you that I don't get ANY performance gain on my engine using Aspen (or any other alkylat fuel). It has been set up for Italian fuel!

-Morten-

[Cat]

Cookee
If your worried about the black cloud of smoke behind your boat (if you run 98 mains) send yor motor to sweden or norway to have it blueprinted then prop it to rev to 8000rpm.
This should stop it smoking. WARNING DO NOT USE 86 MAIN JETS ANY MORE AS IT WILL STOP SMOKING FOREVER. :aaahhh:

[Cookee]

Originally posted by lindeman

We have tried to argue for Cominoff the problems we are facing with the fuel, but with no luck. Please note that the problem is much greater with the cats because of higher RPMs. The problem is that powerboating is one of few motorsports where we are not allowed to use racing fuel, which would guarantee us the same fuel specs all over the world (FIA), and probably save a lot of engines...

-Morten-

1. So the Cominoff (UIM who are the governing body of the sport world wide) don't want you to run the fuel - my point exactly!

2. Don't run the revs!


3. We ran in South Africa and Italy as well as Gibralter on standard UK set ups and to my knowledge there were no fuel related problems -

4. The italians run cats ok and the only Swedish cat in the UK keeps blowing up powerheads???

All I want is a level playing field - unless I import special Swedish fuel and experiment with different setups in private testing only, I would never contemplate running a different fuel in a foreign country in a 3 race World Championship, and I'm afraid I don't know anyone at this level that has the budget to do that! So I think in my humble opinion that the spirit of the rules should be adhered to if not the letter - As I have said before Morten I think that all of the Scandivian teams were very friendly and I would never have a bad word said about you as I really believe that you do not intend to cheat, but rules are rules and if we don't stick to them what is the point?

All the best,

[lindeman]

1. Cominoff changed their rules some years ago because they really admitted they know nothing about fuel. (We had a fuel spec in the rulebook, which would have disqualified all European and American fuel)

2. Start running cats - you'd get the revs. Offshore class 3C is for both single and multi hulls

3. SA got a leaded fuel for the competition as far as I can remember - this to get the needed octane

4. I'm not saying they are blowing up all the time - you have a much higher risk.

What we all can agree on is that we need a common set of parameters to achieve fair racing throughout all members of the UIM. Currently the regular pump fuel specs differentiate a lot between different countries. Fuel is not stable, and the quality also defecates a lot between different fuel stations depending of how old it is. FIA has currently two, full time employees working on - fuel. Why don't we say that we allow for FIA racing fuel - which will be more or less equal throughout the world?

Another problem we are facing is the disallowance of blueprinting the new EPA engines. I know from manufacturers that they have problems following the +/- 5% HP specs from the EU. +/- 5% will give a range of 190-210 HP for the new engines....


-Morten-

[Cookee]

Originally posted by lindeman

3. SA got a leaded fuel for the competition as far as I can remember - this to get the needed octane

-Morten-

I was there and I bought the fuel from a regular pump!

A more precise defintion would help but sticking to what the UIM's rule book would be a start - right or wrong.

Don't know anything about the new engines so I can't comment but I see your point.

[nobwaver]

Cookee, Im curious, how many powerheads did you blow up last year using your english "pumped fuel"

[Cookee]

Hello there nobwaver - well that's a good question, however I am fairly sure that our engine problems stemmed from fitting a fuel computer to the boat which needed an inline flow meter, so it would be irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned!