Wanted Phantom [Archive]

Captain Chaos

13-08-2004, 02:50 AM

I didnt mean 2 people have splashed it.........I would guess that there are more than 2 intelligent criminals in the world!!!

I meant 2 x rib versions...............theres the phantom EVO....and i heard a rumour that the 19XL is no in a prototype rib form!!

L&N

13-08-2004, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Johnson
Would you like Steve's number so you can negotiate your royalty payment(s), or do you intend to just steal it?

I hope you dont neam me??

Jon Fuller

13-08-2004, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by L&N
I hope you dont neam me??

Why's that?

Phantom 19

13-08-2004, 12:08 PM

Nick Barsch has made a rib based on the 19, looks good, and he ownes the rights to the boat anyway.

Jon Fuller

13-08-2004, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Phantom 19
Nick Barsch has made a rib based on the 19, looks good, and he ownes the rights to the boat anyway.

Yes, when Nick bought the rights/moulds from Steve, he bought the right to do what he pleased with it.

Captain Chaos

14-08-2004, 03:11 AM

Thatz what i was feckin chattin abart!

L&N

14-08-2004, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Johnson
Why's that?

if i take a boat and change it, its diferant i would only have to pay royaltys if i was making the same.

Jon Fuller

14-08-2004, 07:17 AM

I see, and would you still think that if the design being 'changed' was yours, and you'd spent a fortune in time and money making plug, mould etc, and someone else were copying it?

And I'm not talking about a poxy little console that took 10 mins to make, I'm talking about real work!

Also, if the designer doesn't deserve recognition and payment for his work, then you clearly think it must have been easy doing the design/plug etc, so why don't you do your own and leave others alone?

Captain Chaos

14-08-2004, 08:29 AM

Bath of ice Mr fuller!

Some people are ignorant to what exactly is envolved in the production of tooling for a quality boat..........I most certainly was pre joining this forum and opening my eyes to what goes on in the garages & lock-ups of the smaller people in this industry.

At the end of the day, this issue is as much a morale one as anything else................passing something off as your own, when its not is blantantly imorale....and only an arsehole would do it.

And to be honest, isnt all the fun in creating something that's part of you??

Jon Fuller

14-08-2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Captain Chaos
passing something off as your own, when its not is blantantly imorale....and only an arsehole would do it.

Yes, to be honest, and I know we've been over this a thousand times, the people who think themselves 'clever' taking another persons design/work, changing a small detail, proclaiming "it's different now, in fact it's now my work, so you can't touch me" are little more than pond life! and if this is the way you carry on Mr L&N, then YOU are pond life too! just another low life 'splasher' in a shed somewhere, stealing other peoples work to make money, and I've no boubt making a far inferior product to the original. An age old problem caused by people with little or no morals.

jw.

14-08-2004, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Captain Chaos

And to be honest, isnt all the fun in creating something that's part of you??

Cap'n, you normally speak in tongues but I like that comment.

L&N

15-08-2004, 07:03 AM

i think taking someone's work that was made years ago and up-dateing it, is the way the world works. and im talking big changes not just add a millimeter here and there.

sorry to all you out there that like the old clasics. but the world needs to progress.

anyway what makes you think if people buy the rights to the name and desighn there work is quility????

Tony Davis

15-08-2004, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by L&N
and im talking big changes not just add a millimeter here and there.

sorry to all you out there that like the old clasics. but the world needs to progress.

Hmm, all very interesting, just what sort of changes are you planning to make? If you feel that you are capable of such a task, why do you feel it's neccessary to steal someone's design.

As your planning to build a rib from a sportsboat, you obviously think that the bottom is suitable, so how would you change it to make it your design?

It might be worth pausing for a moment and consider who now owns the Phantom sportsboat moulds, as he could well be a rather large bloke (and if the stories are correct might be out of prison quite soon) who might well take exception to your plans!!!

Jon Fuller

15-08-2004, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by L&N
sorry to all you out there that like the old clasics. but the world needs to progress.

I accept that, but if the phantom 20 is such an 'old classic' and needs so much updating, why would you want to splash it? and yes, the world needs progress, so why don't you leave the 'old classics' be, and build something new, of your own design, now that would be interesting, wouldn't it!

Captain Chaos

15-08-2004, 12:49 PM

The phantom 18 is such an old classic that the new owners have had to make some major changes................to its deck!!!!

The water bit..............still mashes everybody in ocr!!!! so somebody "got it right back in" '73 or whenever...they really did get it right didnt they!!!!!!

Q - how many phantom copies have there been & moreso, how many have proved to be a pile of shit and be a total embarassment to the people whom made them??

I think loads!!!

L&N

16-08-2004, 02:37 AM

yeh, ok you all must be right the phantom must be 100% perfect on the underside so no one could ever inprove it........

i will just have to give up trying to make a better desighn because nothing ever will be as good, right??????????????

Jon Fuller

16-08-2004, 02:40 AM

On the contrary, make a new and better design by all means! that's exactly what everybody wants you to do. You're clearly an expert.

Adam

16-08-2004, 02:42 AM

Splashing!

Most people who splash hulls kid theirselves that they making big changes - but always seem to use the fact that the hull was based on a 'successful design' in the first place when they come to try and sell their inferior product.

If these companies have so much knowledge / skill why don't they develop their own craft from scratch?

Probably does not really need answering!

Adam

Jon Fuller

16-08-2004, 02:52 AM

Nicely put Adam!

And I take my hat off to the likes of you, Richard/Jonathan Lucas, Mike Ring, Steve baker, Terry Sleap and anyone else who designs, builds, riggs and races there own boats! bloody good show :up:

Captain Chaos

16-08-2004, 03:18 AM

I didnt realise K4+ was a bespoke design......very impressive.

As for the whole phantom debate.............Anyone ever considered actually talking to steve baker and asking him how he would (atleast) attempt to improve on any of his hull designs.

I dont know him, but i'm sure the brain is still able even if the body is no longer willing!!! Having him onboard as a consultant would be a very genuine approach to producing a quality product, although it would probably cost said "splasher" some £££££'s

But of course i understand that its possible to wog someone elses hard work by being very underhanded and do them out of a few quid?

So which was it the sharpe or the pacer predater that was the better boat to the phantom 18?

my memory fails me!

Cookee

16-08-2004, 03:41 AM

Originally posted by Johnson
Nicely put Adam!

And I take my hat off to the likes of you, Richard/Jonathan Lucas, Mike Ring, Steve baker, Terry Sleap and anyone else who designs, builds, riggs and races there own boats! bloody good show :up:

Didn't do any hull design but we built rigged and raced the BananaShark and we are (still) building a leisure version which we have designed the top half from scratch - We are proud to be associated with Lorne Cambell - the designer of the hull and if we ever sell any he will recieve royalty payments!

It is incredibly satisfying to win races in a boat that was built in your own workshop, and actually having a hand in building it as well - I just wish I was a better laminator - fortunately Kitten was born with a fluffy in his hand! :laugh:

An American court case recently agreed a splashed boat was a new design despite the hull being identical but with a different deck! :jaw:

Jon Fuller

16-08-2004, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by Cookee
An American court case recently agreed a splashed boat was a new design despite the hull being identical but with a different deck! :jaw:

Not surprising, let's face it, American courts frequently rule simply unbelievable things!....come to think of it, so do British ones :rolleyes:

dbe1

17-08-2004, 07:23 AM

Phantoms through the years have progressed but the basic design has remained, way back when the Bourne Brothers (Jon will put me right) I think it was raced a snoop nosed Phantom 16 on the Putney Calais race, (friend of mine had it for years after and it is still around) it has been one of the best produced and successful boats around, sadly no more, I cant say that the new models that are being built are the same, they may look the same on the outside but a Phantom built by Steve was a Phantom, he built them and knew how every part was put together, just buying a mould and building one does not make it a Phantom, you cannot gain Steve's experience in 5 minute's by splashing a hull, that's only a very very small part of a Phantom.