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Old 16-07-2009, 10:20 AM   #1
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Entry fees

Reading through some of the posts on here about races that have/are happening, I am struggling to understand why some races are so much more to enter than others?

The Cancer research in June was £100 with £10 going to charity
The Camden Trophy in August will be £200
The RIB race just announced in Sept will be just £80
and the CPC event in August is to be £250

This is just the basic entry fees. When we get to the marathon classes it gets even worse, can someone tell me why a classic boat such as Gee is charged £300 when Silverline is being asked to pay £750 to enter the same race, surely Silverline cannot use £350 more space in the marina, more safety cover or more hospitality, so where's the extra money going?????

Also, I am usuming that if I bring my non-raceboat along and enter the CTC as a basic entry it costs only £250!!!!!!!!!!!

If racing in the country is to have any chance of revival and growth there has to be some equality for all racers to encourage more boats onto the start line?

I understand that different classes may have different requirements but within the same series .......?

Sorry to make my first post so confrontational, but I have been keen to get involved for some time and find the politics and associated bollox frustrating.

Does anyone have the answers, please.
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Old 16-07-2009, 10:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boat-racer View Post
Reading through some of the posts on here about races that have/are happening, I am struggling to understand why some races are so much more to enter than others?

The Cancer research in June was £100 with £10 going to charity
The Camden Trophy in August will be £200
The RIB race just announced in Sept will be just £80
and the CPC event in August is to be £250

This is just the basic entry fees. When we get to the marathon classes it gets even worse, can someone tell me why a classic boat such as Gee is charged £300 when Silverline is being asked to pay £750 to enter the same race, surely Silverline cannot use £350 more space in the marina, more safety cover or more hospitality, so where's the extra money going?????

Also, I am usuming that if I bring my non-raceboat along and enter the CTC as a basic entry it costs only £250!!!!!!!!!!!

If racing in the country is to have any chance of revival and growth there has to be some equality for all racers to encourage more boats onto the start line?

I understand that different classes may have different requirements but within the same series .......?

Sorry to make my first post so confrontational, but I have been keen to get involved for some time and find the politics and associated bollox frustrating.

Does anyone have the answers, please.
Hi I'm in no position to comment on the costs,but you could race this weekend at Ilfracombe for Free if you wanted to have a go
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:17 PM   #3
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The Cancer research in June was £100 with £10 going to charity
The Camden Trophy in August will be £200
The RIB race just announced in Sept will be just £80
and the CPC event in August is to be £250
The answer to your question is far simpler than you may believe.

It's all got to do with politics at the RYA. The Cancer Research Race is run by the RMYC - one of the wealthiest Clubs in the Country and certainly sitting on some of the most expensive real estate - and the RYA give them a very large discount on the cost of the RYA insurance for this Event.

The RIB race that has been announced by BIBOA for September. Oh, there's a surprise - firstly BIBOA have not run a race for quite a long time now and if they don't hold a race they will be considered to be an inactive Club as far as powerboat racing is concerned and no longer have a seat at ORC. This is why they are staging this race and guess who is the Chairman of BIBOA - John Puddifoot - the RYA Powerboat Racing Manager, which also probably explains £80 entry fees.

The CPC race is being organised by BPRC Event Management Ltd - who have already held a fundraising Ball so I would hope the entry fees were at an acceptable level. I would consider £250 reasonable - £750 I think is a bit high and would explain the lack of entries to date for the CTC.

As for OCRDA's Ilfracombe Event - which you can enter for free - this is because Bob McCarthy is a true supporter of powerboat racing and has proved this time and time again and is prepared to dip into his own pocket to encourage as many people as possible to "Have A Go" - he should be praised and recognised by all for doing this.

The main reason Powerboat Racing is so expensive in this Country is because the RYA charge so much money for Event Insurance, Licences and any other fee they can drag out of you - the reason they need to drag so much money out of you is that the RYA Powerboat Racing department costs over £220,000 per year to run - and normally loses money. If you take the RYA costs out of racing I think you might find Powerboat Racing becomes viable again. You need to ask yourself the question What do the RYA really give you for that £220,000+? Not a lot apart from a load of bureaucratic red tape - like our Government.

If people want Powerboat Racing to continue in this Country they need to take a very long hard look at how it is currently set up and run.
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:28 PM   #4
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What I don't understand is why such a huge difference in costs though. I assume the RYA costs for scrutineers and officials is the same for all events?

So why can the cost for Cowes (basic entry) be 3 times more than the RIB event???

As for the CTC entry fees, I would love to hear the thinking behind these...

Maybe someone from BRPC could explain what the extra money is for?
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:33 PM   #5
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correct me if im wrong
as i usually am

but when im out on sataday and sunday at ilfracombe, my insurance wont cover me as im in a race... not sure about the rya's invlvement with this particular one
but im under the impression that if i crash. etc, its down to me... and this is a risk im willing to take
i know im standing on very thin ice here but
if i take my car to a track day event....unless i take out special insurance, im not insured... but im still alowed to do it as its a risk.... IM willing to take
surely take the RYA's involvemnt out of it, and have alot more fun events
if, there were more races like ilfracombe, and exmouth, which have both been free! but at an affordable amount..... i think wed see one hell of alot more competetion,
just my 2 cents
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:37 PM   #6
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What I don't understand is why such a huge difference in costs though. I assume the RYA costs for scrutineers and officials is the same for all events?

So why can the cost for Cowes (basic entry) be 3 times more than the RIB event???

As for the CTC entry fees, I would love to hear the thinking behind these...

Maybe someone from BRPC could explain what the extra money is for?
Puting a race on over a full weekend, based in a very expensive marina, large cranes for the large boats, laying on entertainment, etc, etc cost a shit load more than running a race out of a car park somewhere. it has to be paid for.

Some structure has to be implemented to attract the required sum. sadly, that means to some extent basing things on the ability to pay principle.

Imagine if the entry fee were a flat rate across the classes (for the CTC for example), would the guy with the 25 footer, worth maybe 10k, he happy, or able to pay the same entry as Hannes Bohinc with his £1M boat?

You realy can't please everyone. best thing is to vote with your feet, or organise your own event and put things 'right'.
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
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correct me if im wrong
as i usually am

but when im out on sataday and sunday at ilfracombe, my insurance wont cover me as im in a race... not sure about the rya's invlvement with this particular one
but im under the impression that if i crash. etc, its down to me... and this is a risk im willing to take
i know im standing on very thin ice here but
if i take my car to a track day event....unless i take out special insurance, im not insured... but im still alowed to do it as its a risk.... IM willing to take
surely take the RYA's involvemnt out of it, and have alot more fun events
if, there were more races like ilfracombe, and exmouth, which have both been free! but at an affordable amount..... i think wed see one hell of alot more competetion,
just my 2 cents

A track day is different. there isn't any 'general public' wandering about on your course/track.

If you run into, or over a member of the public during your powerboat race, that is where the RYA insurance would hopefully come into play, nothing to do with what you might lose yourself, that, is irrelevant.
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Imagine if the entry fee were a flat rate across the classes (for the CTC for example), would the guy with the 25 footer, worth maybe 10k, be happy, or able to pay the same entry as Hannes Bohinc with his £1M boat?

You realy can't please everyone. best thing is to vote with your feet, or organise your own event and put things 'right'.
Entry shouldn't be based on ability to pay but willingness to enter! Someone who has worked hard to afford there raceboat and who doesn't have an open cheque-book is being penalised for trying to compete with Mr Moneybags. The attitude of 'he can afford it' is no excuse to rip someone off, is it?

My question is still, what does Hannes Bohinc get more for his entry compared to Mr 25 footer, to justify the extra expense?
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:57 PM   #9
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Erm I think you've missed the point of the RYA insurance. It is to insure third parties, not yourself, as you are racing in an environment that the public have access to. You don't get missus Smith pootling out for a shopping trip on your average track day. The track itself will have it's own public liability insurance.

Obviously no interested party such as harbour authorities or the like are going to allow a race to take place without insurance in place.

Of course you could as an organiser attempt to organise your own underwriter but I somewhat doubt it would be competitive given instances like the overnight RYA insurance renewal when some insurer went bust and the subsequent accident the next day in Southend some years ago.

Whether the RYA £220k is good value for money is subjective and to say it generally loses money is disingenious as it does not offset any rya membership against it that may only be there because someone is a racer.

My own opinion is that the RYA should offer a specific membership for powerboating / powerboat racing and ringfence those funds so that the money goes directly into the area that the membership is relative to.

My membership monies goes towards all sorts of activities that whilst good (disability sailing, olympic sailing team support etc) are not the reason I am a member in the first place. I wouldn't mind betting that close to fifty percent of membership money is nowadays derived from powerboat activities but that the rag and stick brigade get the most expenditure.
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Old 16-07-2009, 12:57 PM   #10
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Entry shouldn't be based on ability to pay but willingness to enter! Someone who has worked hard to afford there raceboat and who doesn't have an open cheque-book is being penalised for trying to compete with Mr Moneybags. The attitude of 'he can afford it' is no excuse to rip someone off, is it?
Well, when you organise an event using your system of charging, I have no doubt it'll be a massive success. I hope you have a large budget for bankrolling purposes, you'll need it.

Where you're not seeing the reality is, the higher classes (where the likes of Hannes live) have realistic entry fees, needed to cover the kind of event being run. the smaller classes, who should, as you rightly say, pay the same amount, in reality get a huge discount, because it's the only way they can do it, and thus get the entry numbers up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat-racer View Post
My question is still, what does Hannes Bohinc get more for his entry compared to Mr 25 footer, to justify the extra expense?
He gets to race, because the business model works, and mr 25 footer also gets to race. You can have all the idealistic ideas in the world, but if it doesn't raise the required funds, no one gets to race....go figure.

I wish you well with your system.
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Old 16-07-2009, 01:23 PM   #11
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as i said, i stand to be corrected,
and fair point
but how does the likes of bob do it then... for nothing??
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Old 16-07-2009, 02:01 PM   #12
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Just to clear the murk from previous posts.
If I recall correctly the third party insurance in case you hit joe public – is via the Licence / event licence that you purchase along with a small admin fee from the RYA. Nowt to do with the club other than running the admin for the event one on the day

The race organiser needs event insurance to cover all what the para above doesn’t. So to confuse these two under entry fees banner is a little misleading. There are other fees involved which has been beaten to death previously which a club/organiser would / could incur.

From my understanding the WPPA model is slightly different, where the Licence only covers just that & insurance is purchased per event – the more races you do the more you pay.

I can see why the RYA do it the way they do & the same for the WPPA. Both examples work & both have merit, the ever increasing ‘where there’s blame there’s a claim’ culture that has crept in over the last 20 years hasn’t help the cause one bit. Event sponsorship at an all time low would also factor for anybody organising racing.

Racing started with the enthusiast digging deep into their own pocket & it has turned full circle.
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Old 16-07-2009, 02:08 PM   #13
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Well, when you organise an event using your system of charging, I have no doubt it'll be a massive success. I hope you have a large budget for bankrolling purposes, you'll need it.

I wish you well with your system.
No need to get arsey about this, I just asked the question I am sure plenty of other people are thinking.

I don't have a 'system' and am not proposing one or to organise races, but I am looking at competing and would appreciate a little clarity.

A system that is fairer to all will encourage more people to compete and that can only be a good thing.

I appreciate that Cowes is and has always been a very prestigious event, but entry fees that are out of proportion to ALL other events in this country have to be justified or the organisers run the risk of alienating potential racers. When Marc Lamont proposed a Poole-Cherbourg event earlier this year, he made it clear that the entry fee would be adjusted if more entries were received to make it cheaper for all competitors, is that not a good idea?
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Old 16-07-2009, 02:24 PM   #14
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entry,s

at this rate with the entry form there will be a means form,earnings,ins and outs e/c/t to see how much entry you can afford.imagine how much hannis would be paying
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Old 16-07-2009, 03:07 PM   #15
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When Marc Lamont proposed a Poole-Cherbourg event earlier this year, he made it clear that the entry fee would be adjusted if more entries were received to make it cheaper for all competitors, is that not a good idea?
I don't know, was it a successful event?


As you've asked the question, twice, and bitten my head off for stating what I believe is obvious, why don't you give us a rough plot for an event that you feel is 'fairer to all' and maybe we can learn from it.

Lets say you've calculated that the event will cost 20k to run, how are you going to spread that across the classes, from 1.3litre offshore to Marathon A. All boats will cover 80 miles.
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Old 16-07-2009, 04:15 PM   #16
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I don't know, was it a successful event?


As you've asked the question, twice, and bitten my head off for stating what I believe is obvious, why don't you give us a rough plot for an event that you feel is 'fairer to all' and maybe we can learn from it.

Lets say you've calculated that the event will cost 20k to run, how are you going to spread that across the classes, from 1.3litre offshore to Marathon A. All boats will cover 80 miles.

Ooh I like these...its like a train leaves Waterloo at 9.00 PM travelling at 60 mph, when will it pass Old Beardy on his Zimmer, who left the Indian in Torquay pissed as a rat at 11.00 pm....

Sorry Jon, couldnt resist.
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Old 16-07-2009, 04:31 PM   #17
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Lets say you've calculated that the event will cost 20k to run, how are you going to spread that across the classes, from 1.3litre offshore to Marathon A. All boats will cover 80 miles.
Did they not do something like that for RB08 ? there was talk on the subject bigger pays more or something like it
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Old 16-07-2009, 06:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flight Racing View Post

The CPC race is being organised by BPRC Event Management Ltd - who have already held a fundraising Ball so I would hope the entry fees were at an acceptable level. I would consider £250 reasonable - £750 I think is a bit high and would explain the lack of entries to date for the CTC.
We held the BPRC Ball as a last resort measure to fund the running of this years Cowes Classic 2009.

Even with the generous donations of our members and friends, entry fees may just make the difference.

Mike LLoyd wants every competitor that races at Cowes this year to feel that they have raced at a very special venue, and then leave the Island with great memories.

We are working very hard in the background to make this years race as enjoyable and memorable as we remember it as racers in the 1980's.
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Old 16-07-2009, 07:25 PM   #19
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entry

i guess the thing to do is show the costing to run cowes or the needles trophy so boat racer and every one else can see what it costs to put these races on.i see no reason that it should be a secret
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Old 16-07-2009, 08:10 PM   #20
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i guess the thing to do is show the costing to run cowes or the needles trophy so boat racer and every one else can see what it costs to put these races on.i see no reason that it should be a secret
Whilst I do agree in principle, I also think that as soon as it were opened up for general consumption, everyone racing on a budget will be saying 'well I don't want, or am uninterested in this, that and the other, so I want to pay less, and not have those benefits'. Then the whole thing falls over again.

I personally think the clubs should choose how to put on / run the race(s) and then the punters choose to support, or not support events as they please.

There are already far too many people giving input, or opinions on stuff as it is, races, rules, everything.
If you're prepared to pay the entry fee for your class at Cowes, pay, and have a blast at the greatest event on the calendar and a piece of history to boot, if you're not, don't. Death by committee is all too common, and I speak from experience.
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