Phantom

[Gav]

bloody splashers are everywhere!!!!

[Jon Fuller]

That's a very touching story.
But Steve was actively trying to sell the tooling for his boats for over two years. Leading up to this time, he was still supplying boats to you/your father.

I know that your company wasn't pleased that Steve wasn't going to be supplying boats to them anymore (if I remember correctly, you had CE marked the 23), so find it 'impossible' to believe that during this period, either you didn't ask how much the tooling (and legal rights to build) would cost, or, Steve didn't offer that information as he was very keen to sell.

If the factory was still there when your father visited, Steve was still collecting post 'daily', and a simple letter would have got you in touch, no need for the ferry! (he only lived 2km from the factory and still owned the site until it was sold, and pretty much immediately demolished)

As it turned out, a British company did buy the tooling and rights.

I rather suspect that you wanted to build the boats, but like many in the boatbuilding industry, you didn't want to pay!

The company who bought the tooling, Trio Mouldings, haven't done the best job of replacing Steve Baker as a keen & active builder, but, they did pay for the right to do it, so were the legal copyright holder. You were therefore stealing from them by building the boats without permission.

This industry is overwhelmed with people happy to line their own pockets at the expense of others.
Steve told me your father was a gentleman in business, I'm not so sure, or you would be the legal owner of the genuine moulds and rights to build the Phantom 21 & 23. (and to use the name) and not just another builder who decided to 'take' what they wanted.

[RossM]

More thieving 's

[gazza]

Here we go!!

[Wayne Kerr]

Originally Posted by Korteland Racing

Main thing that we build the Phantom 21 is to keep the brand alive here in Holland.

Great boat & idea mate, but JF has a full & valid point.

[Korteland Racing]

My father couldn't get any contact anymore with Steve Baker and he was very sad about it because he enjoyed doing business with Steve. It has never been our meanig to steal the Phantom name and/or blaming Steve!

I understand everyones meaning but I don't like to be called a thief. In Holland every speedboat lover knows the Phantom and you should be proud of that except making such a big deal about the maximum of 1 or 2 boats we sell in a year.

We thought Phantom was just disappeared and after a few years waiting we decided to take action and build a Phantom 21 for CE approval to get the Phantom back on the market again.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Korteland Racing

making such a big deal about the maximum of 1 or 2 boats we sell in a year.

Yes, I know what you mean, I now only mug 1 or 2 old ladies a year, I really don't understand why the police keep making a fuss about me!

Just out of interest, how do you think Trio mouldings would feel, having paid good money for the right to build, only to find out that they needn't have bothered, because they only build 1 or 2 boats a year? (I guarantee that you build more than they do)

Originally Posted by Korteland Racing

I don't like to be called a thief.

I'm sure you don't, but that's what it amounts to, as I'm sure the legitimate owner of the boats would agree. And, If you had purchased the moulds/rights, and someone else splashed and began to produce illegaly, I'm sure you would too!

It seems to me, that everyone who splashes and produces someone elses design (and as you well know, there are plenty) they always have a good reason why it's justifiable in 'their' case.

[Taz]

How fast does your boat go with the engines?

[Korteland Racing]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Yes, I know what you mean, I now only mug 1 or 2 old ladies a year, I really don't understand why the police keep making a fuss about me!

Just out of interest, how do you think Trio mouldings would feel, having paid good money for the right to build, only to find out that they needn't have bothered, because they only build 1 or 2 boats a year? (I guarantee that you build more than they do)

Yes, I understand what you all mean and I know how Trio mouldings must feel. I logged in to this forum to meet people with the same powerboat/Phantom interests as me. But I think I'm not making friends at this moment, I'm sorry.

[Wild Thing]

Out of curiosity what is the value of a royalty worth?

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Wild Thing

Out of curiosity what is the value of a royalty worth?

not a huge amount, probably 1%, its the license/build rights agreement at the outset that would be a lump sum.......

[gazza]

Do the royalties now go to Trio if they have all the rights.
How does the law stand with this?
So could this issue be resolved by this.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Wild Thing

Out of curiosity what is the value of a royalty worth?

Obviously it depends on the deal struck by the two parties, if one is on offer at all, but typically a few hundred quid per boat, max.

The issue here is, that the tooling was available to buy, along with the ownership of the copyright. Korteland was an agent of Phantom. I don't believe that they weren't aware the tooling was for sale. I will ask Steve Baker tomorrow.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Korteland Racing

I logged in to this forum to meet people with the same powerboat/Phantom interests as me. But I think I'm not making friends at this moment, I'm sorry.

Yes, there are plenty of keen powerboaters on here.

But you've touched a nerve, with me at least (not too many other people bothered about it).

The 'splashing issue' drives me mad!

[Wild Thing]

Jon if the boat is CE marked would the copyright of phantom not have been checked by the CE authorities as a protocol?

the royalty costs are very small

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Wild Thing

Jon if the boat is CE marked would the copyright of phantom not have been checked by the CE authorities as a protocol?

the royalty costs are very small

No, Steve didn't CE mark any of his boats. All the boats produced after the CE threshold in 1998 were either for racing, or home completion (mine for example) both cases being exempt from the RCD.

[Wild Thing]

sorry Jon I think you picked me up wrong I mean the CE mark on the Korteland boat, checked against copyright of phantom in the UK

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Wild Thing

sorry Jon I think you picked me up wrong I mean the CE mark on the Korteland boat, checked against copyright of phantom in the UK

were phantoms "copyrighted"?

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Gav

were phantoms "copyrighted"?

No, as you know, Copyright is a difficult thing with boats, and virtually worthless, because our courts don't uphold, nor understand whats involved. Some wanky lawyer shows the judge that someone changed a few small details (like for example a dashboard) and the judge decides it's no longer the same boat!

It really depends on honour and honesty, both of which are in short supply.

I believe Steve did get satisfaction many years ago when a uk company splashed the 18, (in as much as the phoney moulds were destroyed) but i'm sure it can, and probably would be horrendesly expensive, especially if it were being faught accross international borders, with very little chance of success.

I think I'm right in saying that Steve would actually have liked Korteland to have bought the tooling, and be producing the boats. As I said, he commented to me that he liked him. Trios haven't put much effort into continuing the brand, this definitely upsets him further. Now it seems the moulds have again changed hands, so who knows whats next.

[RossM]

Jon whos got the moulds now then?
Also, Isnt the rule, you have to make 9 changes to a hull then you can call it you'r own?
any ideas where the 23,25 and 28 moulds are?