Resurrect the Cowes - Torquay - Page 2

Mike Lloyd · 03-09-2007, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verytricky

What part is interesting?
Define what you mean by interesting? That you think it is a good idea, or not?

Sorry, only just caught up with the thread. In reply to your question sir, after racing for more than 11 years offshore, I have learnt to gauge the measure of a man more by what he does than what he says, seeing you have pulled out of the RB08 I guess that answers the question.

Oh, and by the way, I have “hooked” at 75mph in an open topped monohull and never came out, in fact none of us came out and there was never the slightest possibility of any three of us coming out of the boat (it used to do it on a regular basis) as we were tucked in so tight in our bolsters and it’s called “holding on”, it is certainly alarming and uncomfortable at the time, but you learn to let the boat do it’s natural circle and carry on racing and you are all laughing your heads off!

Also I notice that all the threads quoting “breaking bones” at 100 mph if you do come out of an open topped boat are not being substantiated with quotes of actual cases happening in this country in offshore racing, and until they are must therefore be treated with scepticism. Having said that it would of course hurt, a lot!

As an example, I remember the Class 11 Catamaran "Unipart", I think in 1987, “blowing a sponson” doing well over 90 mph in Southampton Water just in front of us and those two guys bounced well and truly and both came out O.K. (Well, that's not actually true as the driver had a large wooden splinter in his leg the boat being a wooden Cougar Cat) but that was about it. I am surprised nobody has bothered to quote that one. To ensure my memory isn’t failing or distorting the situation I am sure Pete C from Cougars will verify that.
ML.

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 06:46 AM

The CUV's were notorious of hooking and spinning out, damned painful but rarely any injuries...............................oh except pride!!!! The piss taking was worth the pain!!!!!

Jon Fuller · 03-09-2007, 08:24 AM

Well, I'm not taking sides at all here, but. ..I've witnessed a couple of proper 'hooks', both at 70mph or less and both did real damage to occupants.
One was TD with a completely black, blue and purple torso, and almost certainly cracked/broken ribs (but he refused to go to the horses piddle, coz he's 'ard'), so was out of action for yonks, in fact, he didn't get up off the floor of the boat till we got back into port. And the other was Steve Salmon, who in the process, destroyed a Simpson crash helmet, shattered a collar bone, and talked (even more) gibberish for a few days after he regained conciousness because of the severe impact to his bonce.
On both occations, it hooked to the right, so I was OK

but it was ferkin violent, and neither casualties were laughing afterwards, that's for sure.

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 08:57 AM

JF, please read carefully, I do not want to cause trouble.
Were both those incidents you mentioned the persons sitting??
If so then I understand because the cockpit is at shoulder (approx ) heit so will cause more trauma, standing you do get ejected out.. Hope that makes sensce, or atleast you understand

Carl · 03-09-2007, 09:26 AM

i have mentioned it before but what about the half canopie,then that keeps everyone happy............maybe

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 10:00 AM

Carl,I have listen and had hoped someone else would answer who has MORE recent knowledge than what I got!! I do think on big (RB08 and CTC) endurance races the would/could hamper rescue be that from a fellow competitor or safety/helicopter would find it difficult.
Bolster do stop you charging around the cockpit but in the event of an incident do allow you to "pop out" aided or un aided, where with an open or an enclosed canopy and the crew "might" be incapacidated?? then the exit could be difficult.
It is far easier to help someone floating or lying in an open cockpit or even on deck without the hinderance of an enclosed area.
It is all a bit like Crash helmets.. Full Facial r not? For protection full is far supperior for the competitor but in the case of medical assistance being required it is a hinderance!!!!!! Personally I do not like full but alwways use them as I know the pain of biting the steering wheel and wead butting the dash !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! False teeth a real pain

Jon Fuller · 03-09-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimB-C

Were both those incidents you mentioned the persons sitting??
If so then I understand because the cockpit is at shoulder (approx ) heit so will cause more trauma, standing you do get ejected out.. Hope that makes sensce, or atleast you understand

Yeah, both times seated in rally style buckets.

I see where you're coming from, but would personaly still go this route, as I've never liked standing, especially for long distances. And standing in a bote would be even worse!

Hit a weird double wave in 'Debenhams' once, used knees to absorb the first impact, then the second unexpected one hit imediately afterwards. eneded up crumpled up under the bolster floor, trying to get my head back up through the bolster, in the rough, at 93mph. It really wasn't fun.

Suspension buckets for me. every time. I'll just have to make sure it always hooks 'to the right' !!

Jon Fuller · 03-09-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimB-C

I know the pain of biting the steering wheel

As does TD, I'm sure.

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 10:07 AM

yeah but his bigger,so got more!!!

Jon Fuller · 03-09-2007, 10:09 AM

I was thinking more of the one in his truck, when he's hanging about by the pier.

Jon Fuller · 03-09-2007, 10:10 AM

With Kennett....or Chaos.

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 10:14 AM

OH! is that why he has a permenant smile.................

Jon Fuller · 03-09-2007, 10:15 AM

I believe so.

The Force · 03-09-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMan

Oh, and by the way, I have “hooked” at 75mph in an open topped monohull and never came out, in fact none of us came out and there was never the slightest possibility of any three of us coming out of the boat (it used to do it on a regular basis) as we were tucked in so tight in our bolsters and it’s called “holding on”, it is certainly alarming and uncomfortable at the time, but you learn to let the boat do it’s natural circle and carry on racing and you are all laughing your heads off!

Also I notice that all the threads quoting “breaking bones” at 100 mph if you do come out of an open topped boat are not being substantiated with quotes of actual cases happening in this country in offshore racing, and until they are must therefore be treated with scepticism. Having said that it would of course hurt, a lot!
ML.

Mike,
Suppose I have started something here with a very bad example - and maybe I should explain the rational behind some of my statements and my personal thoughts.

Firstly from a racing perspective, I prefer open canopy boats - you get more / better visability, no complex and uncomfortable air systems to maintain , cockpit fume issues etc and in my view with the bolsters your get more options on how to position your body to take the pounding. Also nothing like having the wind rushing past you like it does!

If I was going to turn a boat over at high speed though, Id rather be in a full canopy (I think)

The reference to broken bones comes from a program the discovery channel ran called "IMPACT! the Anatomy of a high speed crash" where they focussed on F1 boats, hydroplane and drag boats in one episode (as well as nascar, F1 etc in others), and the development of the Lifeline parachute life jacket. Watching that my conclusion is if you "Actually" hit the water at those speeds you are in a lot of trouble (half the program was dedicated to medical science) but an interesting watch!

As I said originally, this probably deserves its own thread, I was just interested to understand why canopy boats are deemed to be more unsafe -

verytricky · 03-09-2007, 04:10 PM

Going on to canopied boats requiring Helicopters and divers etc etc etc...

Lets ask Josh of this forum about the safety divers when he rolled at the finish line. There are pictures of the safety diver peering into the water safely on the support rib, not getting wet. Then the rib reverses, taking the safety diver with him. Josh and Adrian got out themselves, despite Josh having an issue with his regulator failing to opperate correctly!

The ask Brian and his wife, also of this forum.....

In my time of watching V24's I have seen/heard of five rollovers, three at full speed. In all that time only one crew member had an issue due to a failure of his regulator *that should have been checked* The other nine crew suffered no injury. Most were at hand to help the recovery of their own boat, not being dragged off to hospital!

When a canopied boat rolls, the driver is strapped into his/her seat and reacts much like a car crash victim would, except the seat belts are five piont and not three point, so you are much more secure. So the survivability of the initial crash itself is very very high. Not so getting thrown out of the boat into the sea, hopefully being missed by your own boat and those behind you and hopefully landing nicely so you dont break your neck and its only your arms and leags that get broken........

This rubbish that canopied boats need helicopters and divers is just that - rubbish. All the V24 incidents that I am aware of the crew extracted themselves without the aid of any diver. And in a proper high speed crash the only use an open boat has for a helicopter or diver is to recover the bodies.

You may be 'old skool' - that is fine. But like those who race the old formula one cars - you are at a much higher risk of death and injury. Technology moves on, things get faster and safer. I would not trade my life just to prove I can do it like the 'old timers' used to do it.

What next? Stop eating good food, and revert to rotten foods like they had in the old times? Decide not to go to the hospital and wrap a broken arm in vinager and newspaper? Dont take antibiotics for an infection? Ride a motorbike without a crash helmet? I sure do miss the good old days, and I will continue to miss them when I am in my eighties!

verytricky · 03-09-2007, 04:17 PM

Canopied boats are *only* thought to be unsafe by those who want to race open boats. There is proven scientific fact, by several researchers, and was the basis for the UIM introducing canopied rules that show clearly and consistently that canopied boats are several times safer than open boats.

The UIM intruduced the canopied rules to stop drivers and crew being dead when they reach a consistent race speed. I think the speed is IRO of 145 kph. At that race speed an accident is usually serios or fatal in an open boat, and usually there is no injury in a canopied boat.

The rules for canopied boats have evolved due to accidents showing weaknesses in the canopie design.

Even the 6 litre class 3 now has to have canopies. Two litre does not - because thay have not yet reached the racing speeds required, when they do, canopies will become mandatory.

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 04:45 PM

Can someone show me WHO said canopied boats "are unsafe"???
I hate them but never ever said they r not safe, because they are safe.
It goes back to, if you read what we were discuss in another thread, but you CAN NOT race canopied boats without heli support I know it's rules but they are in this case CORRECT, and only a no brainer would say that in "OFFSHORE" you don't need air/medical recovery.......................

Hazardous · 03-09-2007, 04:47 PM

Anyway, to get back to the subject of the CTC....
Can someone explain how an organisation can own the rights to the race. Could someone else run an 'East Ryde Middle to Brixham race'? ( doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?)

TimB-C · 03-09-2007, 05:00 PM

In theory an organisation/club could I believe..
But no Kudos, the name is in this case everything.
You could probably run the CTC poker run or rally? But you still have the problem of the authorities!!

verytricky · 03-09-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMan

I have learnt to gauge the measure of a man more by what he does than what he says, seeing you have pulled out of the RB08 I guess that answers the question.

I just saw this.

Since when did I pull out of the RB08 race?

Or are you confusing me with someone else? It happens when you get old I am told!

However.... I am currently thinking about pulling out of the race, because I do not think it is going to happen, and if it does happen it will be a cock up. You have a technical advice team that is not competant, and who are biased. I would be looking at spending the better part of £150k, and I worry about the sort of person you have entrusted the running of the rules and regulations to.

However again! I have not mentioned my thoughts to *anyone* prior to seeing this post, so unless you are a mind reader.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimB-C

...but you CAN NOT race canopied boats without heli support I know it's rules but they are in this case CORRECT, and only a no brainer would say that in "OFFSHORE" you don't need air/medical recovery.......................

Since when was this in the rules? I have been racing canopied boats for 4 years, and I have never seen a helicopter.