Ring and Phantom compared to Picton ski boat?

[Superjetjim]

Might upgrade my boat this year - it's a Picton Royale 185. Been on the Solent in her a couple of times, not really into skiing or ringos and the family don't seem interested so I thought perhaps chopping it in for a Ring or Phantom 20.

I have a couple of questions around such a move:

Is the Ring/Phantom and smoother in choppy water - got my ars3 kicked in the Solent last week - only 1-2ft chop but it really made for an uncomfortable ride - trouble walking at work all week!!

Is the Ring/Phantom much faster than my Picton with the same v6 Merc 150? - currently get 45mph on the GPS.

What should I look out for when buying a Ring/Phantom?

Thanks

Jim

[Jon Fuller]

You should expect more speed in pretty much all conditions, but I wouldn't hold your breath for a soft ride.

Find a Sorcerer (bit rare) or go for something bigger. There aint no substitute for size

[lloyde]

To give you an idea my phantom 20 with a 150 promax 15 off shore mid running a 24 chopper 4 adults in the boat we got 64.5 mph on the gps could have got more with playing with props but just got a bigger engine lot easer

[Bänkt]

Softer, probably. Soft, not very.

My Ring 21 topped out at 54 knots in 1 foot chops with a 135hp Mariner (everything out of the boat, alone and aft wind...). Did 50 knots every day.

Then I bought a new engine...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GDkTx0pnm0

[simon]

That looks more like 60mph to me!!! I should get that GPS checked

[driver510]

A phantom is a better boat I think but harder ride than a ring

[Bänkt]

Originally Posted by simon

That looks more like 60mph to me!!! I should get that GPS checked

You are quite correct! The passings are in the range of 55 knots and we are going somewhere around 45-55 knots while filming from the boat. Top speed that day were 65,8 knots though.

[Ringmaster]

Originally Posted by driver510

A phantom is a better boat I think but harder ride than a ring

I agree with you rich. The phantom will be a faster boat, but my ring defo gives a softer ride.

[lloyde]

Originally Posted by Ringmaster

I agree with you rich. The phantom will be a faster boat, but my ring defo gives a softer ride.

Not it your driving

[Superjetjim]

Thanks for all the posts and advice - good to see the post decending into hearty banter

Should I be seeing more top end out of my Picton with the 150 Merc and 21p Quicksilver I'm running - your numbers all seem 20mph north of mine! Perhaps it's the hull design or width (6th)?? Motors pulling 5100RPM top end?

Jim

[simon]

Originally Posted by Bänkt

You are quite correct! The passings are in the range of 55 knots and we are going somewhere around 45-55 knots while filming from the boat. Top speed that day were 65,8 knots though.

That’s truly impressive

But you wanna be careful towing the boat down the highway at those
speeds

[lloyde]

Originally Posted by Superjetjim

Thanks for all the posts and advice - good to see the post decending into hearty banter

Should I be seeing more top end out of my Picton with the 150 Merc and 21p Quicksilver I'm running - your numbers all seem 20mph north of mine! Perhaps it's the hull design or width (6th)?? Motors pulling 5100RPM top end?

Jim

Hi Jim there is all sorts of factors that help a boat go faster : ie the hight of the engine , if you have low water pick up, props, and I think you could go a bit higher on the revs .Where are you in the uk ?

[Superjetjim]

Originally Posted by lloyde

Hi Jim there is all sorts of factors that help a boat go faster : ie the hight of the engine , if you have low water pick up, props, and I think you could go a bit higher on the revs .Where are you in the uk ?

Hi Lloyde,

I'm based Warwickshire way.

How high should the anti cav plate be v the botton of the hull when looking from behind? Probably best if you have a gander next time im down at Lee?

The boat always seems to list to the right at speed and wants to turn right on its own unless I trim it up - is that right?

Cheers
Jim

[Bänkt]

Originally Posted by simon

But you wanna be careful towing the boat down the highway at those
speeds

In Sweden we have a say; as you know yourself, you know others

On topic:

The boat leaning and wanting to turn is normal. You have to trim out while getting up to speed. Practise makes perfect

This may be an inch higher than the old motor. On the Mariner the red line would have been a little bit over the middle of the water intakes. No problems with ventilation or cooling so far. When the restoration is done it will sit a bit higher still.

[The Docta]

Originally Posted by Superjetjim

Thanks for all the posts and advice - good to see the post decending into hearty banter

Should I be seeing more top end out of my Picton with the 150 Merc and 21p Quicksilver I'm running - your numbers all seem 20mph north of mine! Perhaps it's the hull design or width (6th)?? Motors pulling 5100RPM top end?

Jim

Hi Jim

All down to hull design, weight and set up.

Phantoms and Rings are relatively lightweight, narrow deep v's that are designed to go quickly in the chop. Comparing a Ring or Phantom with a Picton is like comparing apples and oranges. A Picton is a heavier lay-up family sports ski-boat. Much wider and designed to be comfortable and stable but not for racing. Good family boats but not race boats (well, at least not the Royale).

If you stuck your motor and prop on a P18 or R18 miught reasonably expect up to 60mph at a guess. The prop would spin faster as boat would be lighter and hull design would result in less surface area in contact with water etc

[Superjetjim]

Originally Posted by The Docta

Hi Jim

All down to hull design, weight and set up.

Phantoms and Rings are relatively lightweight, narrow deep v's that are designed to go quickly in the chop. Comparing a Ring or Phantom with a Picton is like comparing apples and oranges. A Picton is a heavier lay-up family sports ski-boat. Much wider and designed to be comfortable and stable but not for racing. Good family boats but not race boats (well, at least not the Royale).

If you stuck your motor and prop on a P18 or R18 miught reasonably expect up to 60mph at a guess. The prop would spin faster as boat would be lighter and hull design would result in less surface area in contact with water etc

Great answer thanks

[Barrie Williams]

It is difficult to argue the comparison of Picton, Phantom, Marshan and Fletcher boats. They have different strengths and weaknesses.
Firstly, the Picton boats were designed and built by Bill Picton, the first UK driver in the US Mercury F1 race team. In OCR, (Class IV then), Pictons, driven by his son David and John Bevan, totally dominated racing between 1972 and 1978, until Roger and Dawn Trottman rocked up in a Phantom 18 and stole the first of many championships.
All Pictons have a small built-in keel concavity near the transom, designed to help acceleration and keep the nose down in head seas. They were then and still are safe sea boats. As with the any other manufacturer, specialist race boats were built especially light and strong, as racing was part of their marketing campaigns.
There are various things that must be factored in to every high speed boat:
The boat must be dry balanced, both longitude and later – a fork lift truck and strops, with felt tip pen works great. We used to look for a 3 degree dry angle on these old non-stepped hulls.
The boat set up will differ with your intentions. A small offset of say 2.5 cms will slightly counteract the prop torque and an engine cavitation height of 5 cms above keel, will optimise top speed and hole shot, but for racing you will need to be looking at maybe 12cms above keel, but will sacrifice acceleration. For skiing and ringo’s the deeper the lower the better, within reason.
Reference your comment on starboard list – on a well balanced, single engine, boat, the further you are trimmed in the more your boat will list to port and slam on that side – in neutral trim, even at high speed, you should be able to take your hands off the wheel, not recommended, but possible. At very high speed, trimmed out, your boat should be listing to starboard as the prop torque takes over, and your steering will need anti-clockwise correction. You also need to attend to your anode trim, if you still have one, this will also affect your balance. Finally, don’t forget that the wind coming in on your beam will list you into it - it doesn’t blow you over, it sucks you over.
These are the characteristics of high speed boating, which become instinctive after a while.
Of the eighties and nineties designs, remember that a Phantom leans into the turns, a Marshan slides, Pictons are hard in and out and Rings are apparently quite soft. Small Fletchers were brilliant and dominant, ask Paddy Reilly, but are not too prominent now, except in UKFFORC, where they are the prescribed F400 boat.
The prop design will also have a massive effect on the boat handling, so get an expert to advise you, or bring your boat to a powerboat race training weekend, because It’s common to see people buying boats and being offloaded with totally inappropriate props – then becoming quite scared and being put off.
Back to your list to port, do you have an accurate trim gauge? Number One accessory!
If you are contemplating buying new: you have the likes of Nick Barsch, Adam Younger, Cookee and Ian Atlee, along with many more expert race builders and designers with a wealth of knowledge, any one of whom can save you loads of time and money.
Finally, theoretical speed is a mathematical function - pitch X revs ÷ gear ratio X slip, converted to mph by inches to miles and minutes to hours. Kids calculator will do it.
Slip is the one that buggers it all up, otherwise we’d all be doing 95.

[Superjetjim]

Originally Posted by Barrie Williams

It is difficult to argue the comparison of Picton, Phantom, Marshan and Fletcher boats. They have different strengths and weaknesses.
Firstly, the Picton boats were designed and built by Bill Picton, the first UK driver in the US Mercury F1 race team. In OCR, (Class IV then), Pictons, driven by his son David and John Bevan, totally dominated racing between 1972 and 1978, until Roger and Dawn Trottman rocked up in a Phantom 18 and stole the first of many championships.
All Pictons have a small built-in keel concavity near the transom, designed to help acceleration and keep the nose down in head seas. They were then and still are safe sea boats. As with the any other manufacturer, specialist race boats were built especially light and strong, as racing was part of their marketing campaigns.
There are various things that must be factored in to every high speed boat:
The boat must be dry balanced, both longitude and later – a fork lift truck and strops, with felt tip pen works great. We used to look for a 3 degree dry angle on these old non-stepped hulls.
The boat set up will differ with your intentions. A small offset of say 2.5 cms will slightly counteract the prop torque and an engine cavitation height of 5 cms above keel, will optimise top speed and hole shot, but for racing you will need to be looking at maybe 12cms above keel, but will sacrifice acceleration. For skiing and ringo’s the deeper the lower the better, within reason.
Reference your comment on starboard list – on a well balanced, single engine, boat, the further you are trimmed in the more your boat will list to port and slam on that side – in neutral trim, even at high speed, you should be able to take your hands off the wheel, not recommended, but possible. At very high speed, trimmed out, your boat should be listing to starboard as the prop torque takes over, and your steering will need anti-clockwise correction. You also need to attend to your anode trim, if you still have one, this will also affect your balance. Finally, don’t forget that the wind coming in on your beam will list you into it - it doesn’t blow you over, it sucks you over.
These are the characteristics of high speed boating, which become instinctive after a while.
Of the eighties and nineties designs, remember that a Phantom leans into the turns, a Marshan slides, Pictons are hard in and out and Rings are apparently quite soft. Small Fletchers were brilliant and dominant, ask Paddy Reilly, but are not too prominent now, except in UKFFORC, where they are the prescribed F400 boat.
The prop design will also have a massive effect on the boat handling, so get an expert to advise you, or bring your boat to a powerboat race training weekend, because It’s common to see people buying boats and being offloaded with totally inappropriate props – then becoming quite scared and being put off.
Back to your list to port, do you have an accurate trim gauge? Number One accessory!
If you are contemplating buying new: you have the likes of Nick Barsch, Adam Younger, Cookee and Ian Atlee, along with many more expert race builders and designers with a wealth of knowledge, any one of whom can save you loads of time and money.
Finally, theoretical speed is a mathematical function - pitch X revs ÷ gear ratio X slip, converted to mph by inches to miles and minutes to hours. Kids calculator will do it.
Slip is the one that buggers it all up, otherwise we’d all be doing 95.

Thanks Barrie, lots of useful nuggets there - will read and absorb!
Cheers,
Jim