what is YOUR opinion on this

[Techteam]

Originally Posted by RHINO

back to my original question,will rule makers allow you to buy a 150 pro xs powerhead to put on a 15in offshore mid,it seems the opinion is no it has to be a standard complete motor.But what happens if mercury decide to sell 150pro xs on offshore mids .Dont forget mercury want to win races.As for yhe 150 class i think it should be any motor ,offshore or not between 150 and 199hp that should please everyone

I would be extremely surprised if Mercury were to start making semi custom motors for the number of boats it would attract. Let's face it they have yet to make a replacement for F1 engines no longer in production as of this year, The Optimax 200XS took years ! The Formula Race 60 is sold in tiny numbers and Mercury are not happy about it.

[Paul E]

Originally Posted by Techteam

As an HO engine owner then you didn't answer the question. Is a 115HO more expensive than a 115 and what's the difference ?

The idea of the staggered starts is to get everyone over the line at the same time so the spectators know who the winner is i.e first boat over is the winner 90/115/200 or whatever are you saying that you all finish together? It confusing when you have a race with 7 different winners which has to be explained to the spectators or a race with say 7 boats in where they all win their class.

I don't know about the price difference between the two, there's at least two UK dealers willing to do great deals on the HO for racers. As for real world differences, I have no idea! I think the plate on both says 87KW.

How do you handicap a 90 against a 200? You need some races to work out the difference, making the initial handicaps unfair to 1 of them...

Distinct classes with minimum lengths, weights, and engines freely available to the public without having to know the 'right people' is surely the way to go? Then it all comes down to set up, and driver skill... 3A/B is working well, should the powers that be not be looking at a 150hp version if the 200s are all of a sudden too dangerous? (Complete BS if you ask me, but what do I know?!)

[Hydrostream]

[QUOTE=motorvator;247383]

Originally Posted by OCRDA

Isn't the 115HO around the same sort of money or cheaper than the Yamaha 115 PRONON-EPAHO190PSI-RINGER?

Big difference being that one is in production, homologated and available to the public?

Haha, I wish!! 65 grand I have in my motor now!! Pistons were forged from unobtanium! And if its only running 190 psi you must have at least three broken rings in that cylinder, Should be 340 psi!! You HAVE to start em with a vacuum in the air box or its likely to suck the boat in!!

Really?? How much do you think it costs to blueprint a v4??
I would actually love to go do the worlds but the reality is I couldn't afford that kind of money on a motor!!
And how much extra you think you get from one? I couldn't catch 3A boat in Torquay not bad for a stock 115 merc!!

And anyone can get a blueprinted motor! So they're as available as a merc 115 pro xs being that you will have to order one and wait for it to be delivered! Not going to have em with the Brussel sprouts in tesco!

[motorvator]

[QUOTE=Hydrostream;247386]

Originally Posted by motorvator

Haha, I wish!! 65 grand I have in my motor now!! Pistons were forged from unobtanium! And if its only running 190 psi you must have at least three broken rings in that cylinder, Should be 340 psi!! You HAVE to start em with a vacuum in the air box or its likely to suck the boat in!!

Really?? How much do you think it costs to blueprint a v4??
I would actually love to go do the worlds but the reality is I couldn't afford that kind of money on a motor!!
And how much extra you think you get from one? I couldn't catch 3A boat in Torquay not bad for a stock 115 merc!!

And anyone can get a blueprinted motor! So they're as available as a merc 115 pro xs being that you will have to order one and wait for it to be delivered! Not going to have em with the Brussel sprouts in tesco!

Love the term 'Blueprinting' Alan.

If you couldn't catch the 3A boat then maybe you need to have a look at removing the beer chest and optics rail.

In truth though mate these engines are no more expensive than any outboard has ever been. They are just new stock. Give it another year or two and you'll be able to pick up an old one up cheap and start spending money keeping it together the way you do the V4's. It'll be cheaper to do though as you won't be able to 'Blueprint'.

[Techteam]

Originally Posted by Paul E

I don't know about the price difference between the two, there's at least two UK dealers willing to do great deals on the HO for racers. As for real world differences, I have no idea! I think the plate on both says 87KW.

How do you handicap a 90 against a 200? You need some races to work out the difference, making the initial handicaps unfair to 1 of them...

Distinct classes with minimum lengths, weights, and engines freely available to the public without having to know the 'right people' is surely the way to go? Then it all comes down to set up, and driver skill... 3A/B is working well, should the powers that be not be looking at a 150hp version if the 200s are all of a sudden too dangerous? (Complete BS if you ask me, but what do I know?!)

90 against a 200. Speak with Windermere or Carmill clubs they've done it for years! Initial data from them and a few races. Everybody would be at the same disadvantage.

[Paul E]

Originally Posted by Techteam

90 against a 200. Speak with Windermere or Carmill clubs they've done it for years! Initial data from them and a few races. Everybody would be at the same disadvantage.

That's great for a flat lake, completely useless for offshore though!

[motorvator]

Originally Posted by Paul E

That's great for a flat lake, completely useless for offshore though!

And uneccessary as you say Paul.

3A/B is coming together and I think the same can be done with a 150 EPA class building on the E1500 stuff.

People coming across the line at different points is no different to what it has always been when running multiple classes on the same course. Get the fleets back to the size they should be and they will run separately from club and modified stuff as happens with an international race.

[Techteam]

Originally Posted by Paul E

That's great for a flat lake, completely useless for offshore though!

So you ruffy tuffy offshorers never struggled at the Windermere enduro then given it was a "flat lake" Never fell out or turned over. Having said that not raced on Windermere for a while but bring your epa up to Barrow docks and have a go I'm sure they will be delighted to be shown how it's done.

Lights Out Bob!

[Paul E]

Originally Posted by Techteam

So you ruffy tuffy offshorers never struggled at the Windermere enduro then given it was a "flat lake" Never fell out or turned over. Having said that not raced on Windermere for a while but bring your epa up to Barrow docks and have a go I'm sure they will be delighted to be shown how it's done.

Lights Out Bob!

Not quite sure why you're having a go at me here.... I know from experience that handicapping a variety of offshore boats doesn't work, but grouping them together by hp/size does. I was a supporter of the GPA handicap system when it was introduced, but as last season developed it was clear to everyone that it wasn't working as well as it did in theory.

I've raced on Coniston when the wind was up, and granted it wasn't 'flat', but it was a hell of a lot flatter and more consistent than a similar wind in Guernsey and a 10m tidal range flowing. Average speeds in offshore racing vary massively according to conditions, and it's impossible to find a consistent and fair handicap between for example a Phantom 19 with a 115XS and a Phantom 20 with 225 Promax. In a rough race there could only be a few mph difference if any, in calm water the 225 is 15mph faster. 10mph difference over a 45 minute race is huge.

[OCRDA]

Originally Posted by Techteam

90 against a 200. Speak with Windermere or Carmill clubs they've done it for years! Initial data from them and a few races. Everybody would be at the same disadvantage.

Yep we will be there on July 12th to check it out.

[OCRDA]

So !! Who is going to educate us on checking these new fangled electronically controlled engines !! And please stop referring to Ho's and Xs's as 115, 150 etc. or are you all greener than you think the motors are Kerry ??

Bottom line is that if you want to Race you need Racing Kit if you want to go Bass fishing then keep your fishing motors !!

How much Horsepower is a 115Ho anyway Paul ??

[motorvator]

Originally Posted by OCRDA

So !! Who is going to educate us on checking these new fangled electronically controlled engines !! And please stop referring to Ho's and Xs's as 115, 150 etc. or are you all greener than you think the motors are Kerry ??

Bottom line is that if you want to Race you need Racing Kit if you want to go Bass fishing then keep your fishing motors !!

How much Horsepower is a 115Ho anyway Paul ??

Not sure what you are concerned about if you are not racing the EPA classes Bob?

Everybody that is, is happy that whatever it states on the side on the cowl, they can just as easily go and buy the same motor and let their racing be about set up and driving ability.

As for checking the motors, you really don't need to concern yourself about that, it is all in hand. Unless you are thinking of trying to bend one of course.

This bit about 'blueprinting' and having to machine motors to keep up with dodgy manufacturers claims is becoming very tiresome now and damaging relations in the sport. I am really surprised you can't see that.

[Paul E]

Originally Posted by OCRDA

How much Horsepower is a 115Ho anyway Paul ??

Less than a blueprinted 115 Pro V

[Zander]

Originally Posted by Paul E

Less than a blueprinted 115 Pro V

Ye a blueprinted 115 Pro V gives more horses than a 150 H.O or Pro Xs I have been told

If everyone uses EPA engines it´s more fair racing than using "blueprinted" old Pro V´s and whatnot.
That´s just how it is.

[Techteam]

Originally Posted by Paul E

Not quite sure why you're having a go at me here.... I know from experience that handicapping a variety of offshore boats doesn't work, but grouping them together by hp/size does. I was a supporter of the GPA handicap system when it was introduced, but as last season developed it was clear to everyone that it wasn't working as well as it did in theory.

I've raced on Coniston when the wind was up, and granted it wasn't 'flat', but it was a hell of a lot flatter and more consistent than a similar wind in Guernsey and a 10m tidal range flowing. Average speeds in offshore racing vary massively according to conditions, and it's impossible to find a consistent and fair handicap between for example a Phantom 19 with a 115XS and a Phantom 20 with 225 Promax. In a rough race there could only be a few mph difference if any, in calm water the 225 is 15mph faster. 10mph difference over a 45 minute race is huge.

I don't have a go at anyone, I'm not that sort of person. It's interesting though on forums and such like that people immediately find all the negatives instead of thinking carefully about a way to resolve the problem to make it work and suggest it rather than saying a blanket it won't work. After all it's only maths at the end of the day. It's not impossible it's just never been tried with all the variables considered. Anyway I'd better go and take this 150 Opti off the CNC and return it to the owner with a note saying definitely not to be raced in offshore in new EPA 150 class.

[Hydrostream]

Originally Posted by Techteam

Anyway I'd better go and take this 150 Opti off the CNC and return it to the owner with a note saying definitely not to be raced in offshore in new EPA 150 class.

I was tinkering with a handicap system that was based along similar lines to a sailing handicap. But instead of a boats measurement rating it was initially based on a power to weight ratio using a hull constant. Is still a bit rough and would need to evolve but essentially to win you have to beat yourself or finish closest to your corrected time.
Just ran out of time playing with it and have forgotten my direction of thinking to pick back up!
Need to play with it again, run it on some race results/ lap times and see how it stacks up.

[Renegade]

Originally Posted by OCRDA

So !! Who is going to educate us on checking these new fangled electronically controlled engines !! And please stop referring to Ho's and Xs's as 115, 150 etc. or are you all greener than you think the motors are Kerry ??

Bottom line is that if you want to Race you need Racing Kit if you want to go Bass fishing then keep your fishing motors !!

How much Horsepower is a 115Ho anyway Paul ??

Why are you so worried about checking motors all of a sudden? You done away with stripping and measurements in ocr when homologation was still in with your so called 'experimental class'.

[Paul E]

There's excellent plans being put in place for scrutineering the 115s at the Worlds in September, and the only reason I can see for someone objecting is if they're cheating.

[RHINO]

well it would appear that the proposed 150 class only want off the shelf motors,no 15in and have to be epa,ho and pro xs included.i just hope its all put in writing before anyone starts buying.So the ex 3c boats have two choices,have a canopy fitted and carry on 3c or have an engine change and do the 150 class,which should be the better option with more entrys.Looking forward to drivers forum

[OCRDA]

Originally Posted by motorvator

Not sure what you are concerned about if you are not racing the EPA classes Bob?

Everybody that is, is happy that whatever it states on the side on the cowl, they can just as easily go and buy the same motor and let their racing be about set up and driving ability.

As for checking the motors, you really don't need to concern yourself about that, it is all in hand. Unless you are thinking of trying to bend one of course.

This bit about 'blueprinting' and having to machine motors to keep up with dodgy manufacturers claims is becoming very tiresome now and damaging relations in the sport. I am really surprised you can't see that.

I have shown my intention to enter the Class 3 worlds in Guernsey as I did in UK & Norway I am just interested to know how they will be checking that engines are 115 hp as stated in the rules !

I may have mentioned this before but my Yamaha V4 is every bit as epa compliant as any other just check the facts.