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Old 17-08-2013, 11:16 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by snapper66 View Post
Great idea, but who buy these boats, as the people who already have race boats would struggle to sell their own.
Looking at it that way - nothing new would ever happen. Can't keep living in the past - offshore has done far too much of that. Got to move with the times.

Theres actually a fair few people out there who want to race and are not currently. But apart from the right classes and boats - the sport has much more to get into place in offering great events / better value for money / less red tape and hassle.

Not getting at any clubs - just a state of where we are overall in the sport in my opinion.
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Old 17-08-2013, 11:22 AM   #222
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I have been thinking about something similar myself.
Single engine class, max 30í, and with a weight so it can be towed behind a normal car would be good for us with a normal income.
I think itís easier to have a limit on engine displacement than power, as power is difficult to police.
Could be a combination of cc / power / production definition - somehow I think you would want to safeguard against options that are giving big advantages / large costs. So cc on its own could potentially allow massive horsepower if taken to an extreme.

But all other things like towable limits would all help. Then to keep practical - go for open cockpit / no canopies.

I'm sure it could all work - but the sport needs to get itself up and moving forwards first.
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Old 17-08-2013, 11:34 AM   #223
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I don't think new classes are the way to go, brand new boats to buy and build just pushes up the cost of racing and devalues existing boats that may no longer fit.

When the Venture Cup Prologue came over here all of the attention from powerboat people and the general public was for the big noisy boats of Markus and Ole!

Powerboating is never going to be an affordable, easy sport to get into, especially marathon.
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Old 17-08-2013, 11:59 AM   #224
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I don't think new classes are the way to go, brand new boats to buy and build just pushes up the cost of racing and devalues existing boats that may no longer fit.

When the Venture Cup Prologue came over here all of the attention from powerboat people and the general public was for the big noisy boats of Markus and Ole!

Powerboating is never going to be an affordable, easy sport to get into, especially marathon.
As I said - I don't think it is time to introduce new classes - the sport is too weak. We are stuck with what we have got - but at the same time it is not working when with a great event like Cowes coming up and you only get 15 boats - with I think only one class with more than 2 boats.
- B class should have been the upper limit (agrees with what you say!)
- It will never be cheap of course - but needs to be better value than it currently is and less red tape. There are quite a lot of potential competitors out there who cannot justify current costs.
- Too many similar classes without an entry class.
- So classes could be closed up without ruling out current boats. Not everyone would be happy for sure.!

But this is all hypothetical - as it won't happen!

all in my independent opinion!
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Old 17-08-2013, 12:52 PM   #225
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As I said - I don't think it is time to introduce new classes - the sport is too weak. We are stuck with what we have got - but at the same time it is not working when with a great event like Cowes coming up and you only get 15 boats - with I think only one class with more than 2 boats.
- B class should have been the upper limit (agrees with what you say!)
- It will never be cheap of course - but needs to be better value than it currently is and less red tape. There are quite a lot of potential competitors out there who cannot justify current costs.
- Too many similar classes without an entry class.
- So classes could be closed up without ruling out current boats. Not everyone would be happy for sure.!

But this is all hypothetical - as it won't happen!

all in my independent opinion!
It depends how one views "Racing" - It boats were, for instance, despatched at set intervals, over a measured course, it would be a time-trial, the fastest time would of course win, but it gives opportunities for slower boats, cruisers, etc to take part.
The existing classes could remain, the slower boats would not be "left behind" by faster ones, if the 'field' were correctly placed.
I have been involved in a similar system for a road based sport, & it seems a possible 'way-forward' - A handicap system can be applied, & it would make a reasonable spectacle, albeit one loses the "mass start" ! (Although with few boats that is no longer such a spectacle).
The big question of course is: Would such a time-trial event be viewed as a race by The RYA/UIM ?
Because, bless their cotton socks, the RYA's 'influence' has had of late, it seems, a negative effect on offshore racing, sadly.
(I say that because since 1965 when the RYA took over offshore race authority, for many years they were a positive force - it seems only in recent years has that sadly changed).
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Old 17-08-2013, 02:01 PM   #226
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In all fairness to the RYA - and I have been on various RYA committees for years until recently - so much is now dictated by insurance problems, legal departments and various human rights / claims.

Whilst not making light of any of the recent tragic accidents in our sport - we are all paying dearly for them in terms of influence over our sport. Also incidents before these such as the Thunderboat collision at Cowes, the dangerous situation at Portsmouth a few years before and others.

So there is much more than is often seen on here and it is a big factor.
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Old 17-08-2013, 02:17 PM   #227
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In all fairness to the RYA - and I have been on various RYA committees for years until recently - so much is now dictated by insurance problems, legal departments and various human rights / claims.

Whilst not making light of any of the recent tragic accidents in our sport - we are all paying dearly for them in terms of influence over our sport. Also incidents before these such as the Thunderboat collision at Cowes, the dangerous situation at Portsmouth a few years before and others.

So there is much more than is often seen on here and it is a big factor.
You are, of course, quite right Adam.
However, the cumulative effect is the same, whatever the causes.
We all remember the incidents you refer to, & others.
What is different though is that each incident, however regrettable, has drip-dripped a greater load of imposed regulation, which, for better or worse, has had the effect of killing off enthusiasm from those who matter most - the competitors. Without the competitors who spend their money to put a race boat on the water, we have nothing, & incidentally, neither does any regulating body either.
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Old 17-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #228
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I am an armchair would-be racer as most of you know so I do not speak from the horses mouth, I know.

The yanks have come in for a lot of flack from those of us who are old school and still believe in the challenge of man against the elements, and indeed I myself have criticised in the past the trivial courses that have been put together in order to decide who is the 'World Champion' - a course where from shore the spectators can see the entire course. But given the way things are going in Europe, have they got it right? Sponsors will rarely be interested in an event where for 95% of the event, the boats are out of view. My passion for the sport was reinvigorated when I saw the photo's taken from shore of the P1 event held in the Solent. If soaring costs (I understand that for the CTC costs for the big boats are some 10k), are adding to the demise, can such an event not be put forward as the way forward with a 1 hour time limit? If the event is held on a short course, health and safety is concentrated in one area and not spread out over the expanse of, say the CTC course, where each year it is a struggle I believe to get the appropriate number of safety boats. How many were required for the P1 event? It may not be a popular view, but I for one would rather see short course racing, than none at all.
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Old 17-08-2013, 02:32 PM   #229
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I am an armchair would-be racer as most of you know so I do not speak from the horses mouth, I know.

The yanks have come in for a lot of flack from those of us who are old school and still believe in the challenge of man against the elements, and indeed I myself have criticised in the past the trivial courses that have been put together in order to decide who is the 'World Champion' - a course where from shore the spectators can see the entire course. But given the way things are going in Europe, have they got it right? Sponsors will rarely be interested in an event where for 95% of the event, the boats are out of view. My passion for the sport was reinvigorated when I saw the photo's taken from shore of the P1 event held in the Solent. If soaring costs (I understand that for the CTC costs for the big boats are some 10k), are adding to the demise, can such an event not be put forward as the way forward with a 1 hour time limit? If the event is held on a short course, health and safety is concentrated in one area and not spread out over the expanse of, say the CTC course, where each year it is a struggle I believe to get the appropriate number of safety boats. How many were required for the P1 event? It may not be a popular view, but I for one would rather see short course racing, than none at all.
Some years ago, when he was Chairman of the BPRC, Maxwell Beaverbrook had the foresight to see what could happen in the future.
Luckly, Powerboat P1 were running their "Big Boat" series then, & it seemed I am sure, the right way to go to invite their take over. It was a good spectacle, with overseas boats here for a few years.
That went wrong when they wanted to run a CTC race instead, & ultimately led to P1 canceling their race in 2008, & Mike Lloyd offering to run the race for the BPRC. The rest we all know.
However, I still think that a more radical re-think can result in a better supported (by racers & viewers) event, than a continuation of "more of the same" .
Put differently, what have we all to loose ?
This years Race Director has been plain speaking on this forum, & imho, if sufficient racers & supporters want the event, in whatever format, to continue, then it might be "hands in pockets/wallets" time !
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Old 17-08-2013, 02:33 PM   #230
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I am an armchair would-be racer as most of you know so I do not speak from the horses mouth, I know.

The yanks have come in for a lot of flack from those of us who are old school and still believe in the challenge of man against the elements, and indeed I myself have criticised in the past the trivial courses that have been put together in order to decide who is the 'World Champion' - a course where from shore the spectators can see the entire course. But given the way things are going in Europe, have they got it right? Sponsors will rarely be interested in an event where for 95% of the event, the boats are out of view. My passion for the sport was reinvigorated when I saw the photo's taken from shore of the P1 event held in the Solent. If soaring costs (I understand that for the CTC costs for the big boats are some 10k), are adding to the demise, can such an event not be put forward as the way forward with a 1 hour time limit? If the event is held on a short course, health and safety is concentrated in one area and not spread out over the expanse of, say the CTC course, where each year it is a struggle I believe to get the appropriate number of safety boats. How many were required for the P1 event? It may not be a popular view, but I for one would rather see short course racing, than none at all.
100% agreement with you Nigel

Speaking as you do with Massimo Lippi the last few days, he says the UIM have not helped the cause in Europe!!
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Old 17-08-2013, 03:18 PM   #231
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Here we go again...
Jon F - where are you?????
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Old 17-08-2013, 03:52 PM   #232
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Here we go again...
Jon F - where are you?????
I'm over it Mikko!
All I would say is, handicapped racing would kill it for me.
If I rolled up with Warpath, CESA, Cinzano, or indeed Vilda, set off with a handicap pre set (and pre decided) by the organisers, and gordon compton (no offence to gordon) beat me to the line by 10metres and took the big cup as "Glorious gladiator and winner of the worlds toughest race" I would be well, well pissed off I can tell you.

Handicapping just rewards the also-rans and wankers. Just as it did in Offshore 2000 and many other racing events. For a single event it wouldn't be 'so' bad, but in it's traditional form, in a series, there is no incentive to improve your boat, your driving, or anything. because as long as you can always finish, the system will slowly (but surely) throughout the season bump you up the ranking, which is bollox.... why would anyone spend 1/2 million $$ on a boat, when there a reasonable chance the silverware could go to a tosser in a £5k boat who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a ducks arse?
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Old 17-08-2013, 04:52 PM   #233
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I am not suggesting that RYA is, per se, by intent and design, evil and hostile to powerboat racing, but their toxicity is rather obvious.

Adam, you gave a good example of how the 'precautionary' principle works; how rule-making with 'an abundance of caution' turns into a horridly expensive, frustrating exercise whose opportunity costs quickly emasculate individuals, teams, events.

Mark Twain had a famous cat that sat on a hot stove once, and never sat on a stove again - hot OR cold - completely avoiding the view of a calm and beautiful valley for 9months of the year.

The cat got more 'lesson' OUT of the event than there was lesson IN the event. see: RYA & Fastnet ...

Legal departments do not dictate; they advise, and their advice relates to their brief: 'describe our exposure under these three scenarios' results in a completely different opinion from, for example, 'how can we minimise or eliminate exposure?'

Insurance cos are in the business to cost and manage exposure, and they are actually quite good at it, but they ALWAYS provide a better product with an active, informed consumer. Factually (and wryly) there are any number of potential unknowns they would prefer to redline and not cost & rate. The keyword is 'prefer.'

IF ... big word ... IF the RYA wants a big, inclusive, growing powerboat program (like all their windbagger fooferaw), they CAN have it, with managed & manageable risks & exposure.

RYA don't and won't. To RYA, powerboat, esp offshore is a booger on their finger that is damnably hard to flick off.

I hope the new CRC can make some change, but I think we all know that Puddifoot will kill anything new and innovative.

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Old 17-08-2013, 07:34 PM   #234
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Could be a combination of cc / power / production definition - somehow I think you would want to safeguard against options that are giving big advantages / large costs. So cc on its own could potentially allow massive horsepower if taken to an extreme. ...
How to classify is a never-ending exercise in playing catch-up and nothing works, or everything works, and innovation is ultimately discouraged.

America has experimented with all this more that UK/Europe.

- one-design
- slot racing
- handicapping
- official engines
- & 'the latest' official drives (whereby shafts were winning everything, so, by driver vote, Mercury 6 are now mandated. is it really necessary to mention there were 7 boats with M6 and 2 with MPD?)

Regardless, racing/awards is within class.

In this instance, I think the UIM classes are (or were before the last rev) about right: 3 displacement, and several 'stock.'

At the risk of being a complete heretic, I'd merge A & B, with a slightly lower displacement, say 25L, which would allow Seatek, IFM 1306, Yanmar 6SY, MAN (as well as some blower motors), etc. to run ... and they may/may not be competitive with the 40' Ilmor/Arneson combos.

The sea is still the sea, and has a way of limiting technology.

Few, if any, people will ever build another la Gran Argentina (and good on them if they do! as awe is great for the sport) but there is a WORLD of 'hidden' motors just awaiting to be marinisied and tweaked: VM Motari 3.0, Mazda 4.4, Audi alloy V-12, various automotive TDI, several aircraft diesels ...

As example, Cookee has been approached abt marinising that new Mazda race diesel: 4L, 400 pounds & 400hp. What's in it for him? He can't race with it until it is advertised as a marine engine and Mazda has sold 500 of them.

Silliness. Cookee COULD run E-class in morning heats, do a hot-swap over tacos and lemonaid and run 'Medium Hobby' in the afternoon heats.

Some flexible 'Hobby' or 'Experimental' classes would HAVE to add interest ...
assuming, of course, the Gestapo Midgets with Clipboards were taking tea, and the casual racer did not have to carry 300kg and £5000 of H&S crap for a short coastwise race.

At this point, considering facts-on-the-ground (RYA), I'd say that is a no-go.
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Old 18-08-2013, 10:46 AM   #235
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Quote:
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I'm over it Mikko!
All I would say is, handicapped racing would kill it for me.
If I rolled up with Warpath, CESA, Cinzano, or indeed Vilda, set off with a handicap pre set (and pre decided) by the organisers, and gordon compton (no offence to gordon) beat me to the line by 10metres and took the big cup as "Glorious gladiator and winner of the worlds toughest race" I would be well, well pissed off I can tell you.

Handicapping just rewards the also-rans and wankers. Just as it did in Offshore 2000 and many other racing events. For a single event it wouldn't be 'so' bad, but in it's traditional form, in a series, there is no incentive to improve your boat, your driving, or anything. because as long as you can always finish, the system will slowly (but surely) throughout the season bump you up the ranking, which is bollox.... why would anyone spend 1/2 million $$ on a boat, when there a reasonable chance the silverware could go to a tosser in a £5k boat who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a ducks arse?
Well said Jon, succinct and to the point Ė as always.

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Old 18-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #236
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Quote:
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I'm over it Mikko!
All I would say is, handicapped racing would kill it for me.
If I rolled up with Warpath, CESA, Cinzano, or indeed Vilda, set off with a handicap pre set (and pre decided) by the organisers, and gordon compton (no offence to gordon) beat me to the line by 10metres and took the big cup as "Glorious gladiator and winner of the worlds toughest race" I would be well, well pissed off I can tell you.

Handicapping just rewards the also-rans and wankers. Just as it did in Offshore 2000 and many other racing events. For a single event it wouldn't be 'so' bad, but in it's traditional form, in a series, there is no incentive to improve your boat, your driving, or anything. because as long as you can always finish, the system will slowly (but surely) throughout the season bump you up the ranking, which is bollox.... why would anyone spend 1/2 million $$ on a boat, when there a reasonable chance the silverware could go to a tosser in a £5k boat who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a ducks arse?
OK Jon, no handicapping - but a Time Trial, where the fastest boat wins, but boats are despatched by the start time-keeper at set intervals, of, maybe 1 minute, two minutes or whatever is agreed, would, imho, be a time-trial & not a race, hence no need to get involved with "Officialdom".
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Old 18-08-2013, 05:59 PM   #237
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Cowes 2004

This is what we are missing from Cowes.Great boats run in the western solent with no problems ,so why cant we do this now ,who's is really stopping this from happening.
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Old 18-08-2013, 06:43 PM   #238
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But given the way things are going in Europe, have they got it right? Sponsors will rarely be interested in an event where for 95% of the event, the boats are out of view. My passion for the sport was reinvigorated when I saw the photo's taken from shore of the P1 event held in the Solent. If soaring costs (I understand that for the CTC costs for the big boats are some 10k), are adding to the demise, can such an event not be put forward as the way forward with a 1 hour time limit? How many were required for the P1 event? It may not be a popular view, but I for one would rather see short course racing, than none at all.[/QUOTE]


In a nutshell Nigel, that just about sums it up . If there were the money freely available from enough people involved to run large boats you would not need the ferry to Cowes , you could walk to Cowes on the decks of large horsepower boats there would be so many of them afloat !

As someone observed earlier in this thread " Adapt or die"

"If only " P1 had better exposure to worldwide TV we may not have been discussing the subject in this thread. Th great thing about P1 was the sheer spectacle on video. To have fans and followers of a sport you don't have to be present , just access to a decent screen . What percentage of the followers of say Moto GP , WSB or F1 actually visit the circuits , yet each sport attracts big sponsors and factories can afford to get involved and invest fortunes in development just because product can be advertised onscreen. Crack the publicity problem first , THEN go looking for the classes to run.

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Old 18-08-2013, 11:34 PM   #239
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Quote:
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This is what we are missing from Cowes.Great boats run in the western solent with no problems ,so why cant we do this now ,who's is really stopping this from happening.
No one Dave. But... You need about 50/60 + safety boats just to line both sides of the "sanitised area" in the Solent, if you race down it from Cowes.
Go back to what Adam posted (About the incidents involving Chris Peeters & The Pro-V boat he was in hitting the yacht, The fatal accident in Dover, The incident off Portsmouth with Pro-V boats heading to France instead of where they should have, & so on). The insurance companies have records of that, & load premiums accordingly, plus extra safety measures, like dozens of safety boats needed, are insisted on by The RYA to gain Race Approval.
I have been trying to get enough safety boats for months now, for the course from Hurst, let alone in the Solent.
In the current financial climate, not so many will offer free boat to cover safety.
I have had one boat (In Torbay) withdraw as he will not miss Dartmouth Regatta, for just 14 race boats. Those are the sort of problems one has to deal with, & we still have no safety boat for Portland, & its less than 2 weeks to go ! Need I go on ?
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Old 19-08-2013, 01:05 AM   #240
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Just think ... if there were a more relaxed couple of classes, how many of this kind of interesting beauty would show up?

http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/9804
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