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Old 19-03-2013, 09:39 AM   #1
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Been thinking... Dagerouse, I know.

I have started a new thread to look at this in a different light. Thanks for all the help on the other thread and please comment here.

Although my transom does not seem rotten, there is a slight outward bow, in the middle of the transom. I am presuming de-lamination, or something else. Either way, it seems pointless to do all this work without correcting this.

Ok, I'm looking for some serious advise here.

I have two complete engines, two velvet gear box's and two TRS drives (fully serviced and good). I bought these when money was not an issue, as a complete setup, removed from a boat. The guy who bought the boat wanted petrol power.

The original drives were Alpha 1's and the spacing between these drives are too small for the new engines.

The more I think about this situation, the more I am thinking about changing to Bravo 1X drives. Although I don't have the spare cash for these drives now, I could proceed using the original Alpha 1 inner and outer transom mounts. My main concern is, to get these engines off the floor and into the boat.

Ok, My idea is:
1, Dry fit the Alpha transom mounts, at the correct spacing.
2, Offer the engines into position and work out the new mountings.
3, Work out where everything is going to fit (After-coolers, pumps, external hydraulic steering, through hull exhaust etc).
4, Pull everything out.
5, Strip and rebuild transom (and maybe stringers).
6, Re cut drive holes and fit everything, using Alpha transom mounts.

I'll need to find two bell-housings, to mate with the Alpha transom mounts but apart from that, I should have everything else.

Next, sell the TRS drives and the Velvet gear box's. Then wait to find a good pair of Bravo drives.

I would be grateful for all and any ideas. Constructive criticism welcome.

Also, would anyone suggest removing all the existing floor, getting down to the hull and stringers, the adding new floor where it is needed?
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Old 19-03-2013, 04:35 PM   #2
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bravo drives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterjfinch View Post
I have started a new thread to look at this in a different light. Thanks for all the help on the other thread and please comment here.

Although my transom does not seem rotten, there is a slight outward bow, in the middle of the transom. I am presuming de-lamination, or something else. Either way, it seems pointless to do all this work without correcting this.

Ok, I'm looking for some serious advise here.

I have two complete engines, two velvet gear box's and two TRS drives (fully serviced and good). I bought these when money was not an issue, as a complete setup, removed from a boat. The guy who bought the boat wanted petrol power.

The original drives were Alpha 1's and the spacing between these drives are too small for the new engines.

The more I think about this situation, the more I am thinking about changing to Bravo 1X drives. Although I don't have the spare cash for these drives now, I could proceed using the original Alpha 1 inner and outer transom mounts. My main concern is, to get these engines off the floor and into the boat.

Ok, My idea is:
1, Dry fit the Alpha transom mounts, at the correct spacing.
2, Offer the engines into position and work out the new mountings.
3, Work out where everything is going to fit (After-coolers, pumps, external hydraulic steering, through hull exhaust etc).
4, Pull everything out.
5, Strip and rebuild transom (and maybe stringers).
6, Re cut drive holes and fit everything, using Alpha transom mounts.

I'll need to find two bell-housings, to mate with the Alpha transom mounts but apart from that, I should have everything else.

Next, sell the TRS drives and the Velvet gear box's. Then wait to find a good pair of Bravo drives.

I would be grateful for all and any ideas. Constructive criticism welcome.

Also, would anyone suggest removing all the existing floor, getting down to the hull and stringers, the adding new floor where it is needed?
don't think bravo drives will fit alpha transom mounts, but may have 2 bell housings if you do change the drives, best of luck. pete L.
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Old 19-03-2013, 05:13 PM   #3
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Boat name: Patriot and Forca
Boat make: Phantom 21. Falcon Bonito 36
Engines: 200hp Mariner. 2 x GM 6.5 Twin Turbo Diesels
Cruising area: The Med

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete lawrence View Post
don't think bravo drives will fit alpha transom mounts, but may have 2 bell housings if you do change the drives, best of luck. pete L.
Thanks Pete. I might have given the wrong impression. I plan to use the Alpha transoms only as a temporary mount (engine rear mount), to get the right position for the engines. I will have to buy complete Bravo drives, including transom assemblies.

I'll need the bell housings when I take off the velvet gear box's, to mount the engines. I'll also need a pair of exhaust "Y" pieces. Please private message and let me know what you've got and how much.

Also, what do you think of the plan?

Pete
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Old 19-03-2013, 07:25 PM   #4
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bravo drive

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Originally Posted by Peterjfinch View Post
Thanks Pete. I might have given the wrong impression. I plan to use the Alpha transoms only as a temporary mount (engine rear mount), to get the right position for the engines. I will have to buy complete Bravo drives, including transom assemblies.

I'll need the bell housings when I take off the velvet gear box's, to mount the engines. I'll also need a pair of exhaust "Y" pieces. Please private message and let me know what you've got and how much.

Also, what do you think of the plan?

Pete
will have a look at the weekend, see what i have, may also have 1 or 2cow horns, not sure, also not sure if bravo 1 run through transom only. Would need to think about gear ratios for bravo 1 as don't think they do 1.1 ratio. Think the alfa inners also suite bravo 1 outer shields but may need an extra hole, very easy to do. Changed merc small-blocks to big blocks in the 90s. Was quite easy, went very well, used anodised plates inside and out, same as the plates you get to change volvo to merc etc. The bravo is a strong drive and lighter than the trs. but don't know if it was ever used for diesel. Also a thought on the length with the gearboxes on the trs. as it will make them very tight to the fuel tank. Will let you know what i have at weekend, maybe the best option is still the trs. all the best, pete L.
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Old 20-03-2013, 01:36 PM   #5
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Anyone else care to give their opinion?
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Old 20-03-2013, 05:00 PM   #6
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Hi Peter i know there are some Konrads for sale on here not sure if you can get the Ratio changed for your set up, if i remember you have a pair of 6,5 twin turbo diesel V8 s 300Hp .
John Fuller would be your best bet he has D in his boat maybe he can chime in here and help you out . paul
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Old 20-03-2013, 05:35 PM   #7
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Hi Paul,

Long time no speak....

Quote:
Konrads for sale on here not sure if you can get the Ratio changed for your set up, if i remember you have a pair of 6,5 twin turbo diesel V8 s 300Hp
.

I didn't think of Konrads. Arn't they the same transom hole as the TRS?

Quote:
John Fuller would be your best bet he has D in his boat maybe he can chime in here and help you out
His engines are similar to mine, I think. Not sure what drives he is using though. All info will help.

Peter
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Old 20-03-2013, 05:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Peterjfinch View Post
Hi Paul,

Long time no speak....

.

I didn't think of Konrads. Arn't they the same transom hole as the TRS?



His engines are similar to mine, I think. Not sure what drives he is using though. All info will help.

Peter
Yes peter the TRS and Konrad are the same i have only just learnt this . i am sure someone will give you some help here. paul
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Old 20-03-2013, 07:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pain-terra28 View Post
Yes peter the TRS and Konrad are the same i have only just learnt this . i am sure someone will give you some help here. paul
I hope so Paul, some helped a lot when I first started asking about this, then confusion set in and now I'm totally lost.

I checked the TRS ratios today and the shaft turns one and a half revolutions, for one revolution of the prop. The props that came with the drives are Powertech 15 1/4 x 24, left and right.

The TRS's were worked on by Marinautic in 2003, Drain down and strip top housing. Check shimming and adjust as necessary. Re-build, re-seal and re-fill. They were also fitted with 2 new rams and 2 ram rebuilds, new trim hoses and painted (invoice dated Feb 2007).

If any of this helps someone to give better advise.
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Old 27-03-2013, 06:27 PM   #10
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A little old and a little new.
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Old 28-03-2013, 02:03 PM   #11
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Checking Transom

OK, I started drilling the transom today, to check for rot. I think the photos confirm the worst, please comment.



FROM HERE





FROM HERE





CLOSER



FROM HERE

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Old 28-03-2013, 04:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterjfinch View Post
OK, I started drilling the transom today, to check for rot. I think the photos confirm the worst, please comment.



FROM HERE





FROM HERE





CLOSER



FROM HERE

Is that inside or outside the transom?? that looks like you have drilled a knee on the inside of the transom and it looks wet, drill the transom it self from the inside, but if all the wood looks wet, so I think you have only one-way to go, ( rip it all out )
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Old 28-03-2013, 05:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brooker View Post
Is that inside or outside the transom?? that looks like you have drilled a knee on the inside of the transom and it looks wet, drill the transom it self from the inside, but if all the wood looks wet, so I think you have only one-way to go, ( rip it all out )
Thanks Jim.

There are no knees, they are all in the transom, inside. See pic below.



So I guess it's time to pull it out then.....

Would it be a good idea to dry mount the engines, check for mounts and cut for exhausts, hydraulic steering etc, then do the transom? Or do the transom first and then cut?

Thanks

Peter
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Old 29-03-2013, 09:49 AM   #14
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I cut out the shape of the new hole, for the TRS and the wood didn't look too bad but it was black in places and at the bottom of the hole the wood was "Furry" (looking). So I guess it's a new transom.

The inner transom shield hits the outer step in the engine bay, so I will need to reshape that when it comes to fitting the transom and the stringers. They don't really look like "Stringers" though. They look like 1/2 to 3/4 ply, that comes vertically from the bottom and the the same going horizontal to the side, anyone know why this is? I'm guessing that the horizontals are structural also?

I'll fit the other gimble and make supports for the bolts that don't go through the transom, offer in the engines and plan where everything will go, then fit the new transom. Unless anyone can suggest a better way to go?

Thanks.

Peter
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:58 PM   #15
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bonito

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Originally Posted by Peterjfinch View Post
I cut out the shape of the new hole, for the TRS and the wood didn't look too bad but it was black in places and at the bottom of the hole the wood was "Furry" (looking). So I guess it's a new transom.

The inner transom shield hits the outer step in the engine bay, so I will need to reshape that when it comes to fitting the transom and the stringers. They don't really look like "Stringers" though. They look like 1/2 to 3/4 ply, that comes vertically from the bottom and the the same going horizontal to the side, anyone know why this is? I'm guessing that the horizontals are structural also?

I'll fit the other gimble and make supports for the bolts that don't go through the transom, offer in the engines and plan where everything will go, then fit the new transom. Unless anyone can suggest a better way to go?

Thanks.

Peter
hi peter, just a quick one as away for a bit, any luck with extreme marine. The bonito centers are 33in for bbc. leaves about 1/2in between, at plus 2in. x dimension and leaves inner plates well clear of strings. Had a thought about the weight, we had thought about putting the kad 300s from the apache in the bonito but the stern goes down about 2in for every 2cwt and it would have made the exhaust to near the waterline. Dont know the weight of the origional 260s but might be worth finding the old WL and roughly working out if there is going to be enough height for whatever merc say you need for these motors exhaust from the waterline, a lot of mercs need 11in. i think from WL to top of exhaust but not sure and dont know about the 6.2 200hp diesel but worth giving some thought before commiting. Dont want to add to the confusion but as they say measure twice, cut once. hope all goes well, pete L.
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Old 12-04-2013, 11:39 AM   #16
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Boat name: Patriot and Forca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete lawrence View Post
hi peter, just a quick one as away for a bit, any luck with extreme marine. The bonito centers are 33in for bbc. leaves about 1/2in between, at plus 2in. x dimension and leaves inner plates well clear of strings. Had a thought about the weight, we had thought about putting the kad 300s from the apache in the bonito but the stern goes down about 2in for every 2cwt and it would have made the exhaust to near the waterline. Dont know the weight of the origional 260s but might be worth finding the old WL and roughly working out if there is going to be enough height for whatever merc say you need for these motors exhaust from the waterline, a lot of mercs need 11in. i think from WL to top of exhaust but not sure and dont know about the 6.2 200hp diesel but worth giving some thought before commiting. Dont want to add to the confusion but as they say measure twice, cut once. hope all goes well, pete L.
Thanks Pete,

As you can see in the photo, the exhausts have a constant fall built in, not the standard risers etc. I was told that they came out at the waterline, on the boat they were fitted into. I'm sure that I will need to play with this, to stop water backing up the exhausts but that's another challenge.

Ok, decisions made. I'm going ahead with the TRS drives. So, first things first, The Transom! I have tried to read as much as I can but hope that I have not interpreted anything wrong. Am I right with the following procedures?

1, With a circular saw, cut lines in the old transom wood, no deeper than the outer glass.
2, Cut out the floor and stringers, at an angle to the transom. Check stringers for rot and remove any if rotten.
3, Chop out all the old transom wood and grind back to clean glass, 6 inches all around repair.
4, Make a template for the new wood and cut out two pieces.
5, Drill 1/4 inch holes through one piece at 6 inch spaces, to allow PB to exit and to give a physical bond.
6, Bond both pieces together with PB.
7, Grind down existing drive holes, to leave a feathered edge. Clamp melamine board, with release wax, over the existing holes. Gell coat and build up the holes to match the overall thickness of the outer skin.
8, PB the transom wood to the outer skin and tab it to all sides.
9, Replace stringers with staggered cuts and tab into transom.
10, Glass over entire repair.
11, Replace floor and glass in.

Hope I got it all right.
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Old 16-04-2013, 11:32 AM   #17
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bonito

=Peterjfinch;233232]Thanks Pete,

As you can see in the photo, the exhausts have a constant fall built in, not the standard risers etc. I was told that they came out at the waterline, on the boat they were fitted into. I'm sure that I will need to play with this, to stop water backing up the exhausts but that's another challenge.

Ok, decisions made. I'm going ahead with the TRS drives. So, first things first, The Transom! I have tried to read as much as I can but hope that I have not interpreted anything wrong. Am I right with the following procedures?

1, With a circular saw, cut lines in the old transom wood, no deeper than the outer glass.
2, Cut out the floor and stringers, at an angle to the transom. Check stringers for rot and remove any if rotten.
3, Chop out all the old transom wood and grind back to clean glass, 6 inches all around repair.
4, Make a template for the new wood and cut out two pieces.
5, Drill 1/4 inch holes through one piece at 6 inch spaces, to allow PB to exit and to give a physical bond.
6, Bond both pieces together with PB.
7, Grind down existing drive holes, to leave a feathered edge. Clamp melamine board, with release wax, over the existing holes. Gell coat and build up the holes to match the overall thickness of the outer skin.
8, PB the transom wood to the outer skin and tab it to all sides.
9, Replace stringers with staggered cuts and tab into transom.
10, Glass over entire repair.
11, Replace floor and glass in.

Hope I got it all right.[/QUOTE]

hi peter, just read my post again, not sure that i put it right, what i was trying to say that your new motors probably came out of a boat with a lot more buoyancy in the stern, the bonito has not much buoyancy and the extra weight may put the exhausts under the new waterline. There should be a measurement from merc that the exhaust have to be above W.L. don't know what it is, but when we worked it out for 300KADs it was much to low in the water as the drive height governs the exhaust height even though our drives are over 3" above standard alfa height. Trying to help, but realise it adds to the confusion but better to get it write first time than waste an awful lot of time and effort. One last thought, the X dimension on TRS maybe more than bravo which may help, good luck, pete L.
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