Accident to Shelley ?

[kitten]

Ah but what is the point of rules, if we say never mind them? Should the rules be fit for purpose and control people's actions? After all they are designed to keep people safe are they not?

Bearing in mind this is a very common type of collision in circuit racing.

Who would be at fault here under PB1?

If you write a rule to protect everyone in every circumstance then the boats will have to be at least ten boat lengths apart at all times.
I was not talking about ignoring the rules, but also not deciding that you are within them and causing an accident which could be avoided.

 

[Scream-it.com]

If you write a rule to protect everyone in every circumstance then the boats will have to be at least ten boat lengths apart at all times.
I was not talking about ignoring the rules, but also not deciding that you are within them and causing an accident which could be avoided.

Sorry Kitten have moved to 'safety safety safety' to open discussion away from Shelley thread...as the subject should (hopefully) raise a lot of debate and that would be unfair on Shelley

 

[southwesthotcat]

T-bone?

Its easy for us to spend a minute looking at a video and jump to conclusions.
My limited view is ...
It wasn't a T-bone. The outside overlapped boat 'shut the door' (maybe without realising the dangers of doing so) and caused a collision on it's aft starboard quarter with the inside boat's port sponson bow causing the outside boat an uncontrolled and rapid veer to starboard.

The rules in my opinion are better written and clearer for the X cat than the wooly PB1 regs. Readers and racers must differentiate between overtaking on the straight and whilst turning a mark.
PB1 bases its ROW (right of way) on 'overlaps'. It can be hard to judge an overlap at high speed, and the main failure/danger of the PB1 rule (too loosely based on rag and stick origins) is that it defines no distance or position from the turning mark that the overlap can be made or broken. It makes nothing of the difference twixt 'inside' or 'outside' overlap just referring to the boat 'ahead'.
A better tweak for the PB1 rules would be to consider Obstructions and turning Marks as the same and state that if a boat establishes an inside overlap 100 metres of a Mark or Obstruction that the overlapped (outside) boat must give room for the inside boat to round safely, if no inside overlap established at 100 metres the boat behind must go outside or slow down and remain behind.
You can not judge a turning mark incident on the erroneous "overtaking boat keeps clear" premise, unless you are taking part in an Exe Rally where boats are only allowed to overtake on the 'outside'. But bear in mind we do not have chicanes just ovals.
The best outcome of an accident is that racing is safer afterwards.

 

[Scream-it.com]

Its easy for us to spend a minute looking at a video and jump to conclusions.
My limited view is ...
It wasn't a T-bone. The outside overlapped boat 'shut the door' (maybe without realising the dangers of doing so) and caused a collision on it's aft starboard quarter with the inside boat's port sponson bow causing the outside boat an uncontrolled and rapid veer to starboard.

The rules in my opinion are better written and clearer for the X cat than the wooly PB1 regs. Readers and racers must differentiate between overtaking on the straight and whilst turning a mark.
PB1 bases its ROW (right of way) on 'overlaps'. It can be hard to judge an overlap at high speed, and the main failure/danger of the PB1 rule (too loosely based on rag and stick origins) is that it defines no distance or position from the turning mark that the overlap can be made or broken. It makes nothing of the difference twixt 'inside' or 'outside' overlap just referring to the boat 'ahead'.
A better tweak for the PB1 rules would be to consider Obstructions and turning Marks as the same and state that if a boat establishes an inside overlap 100 metres of a Mark or Obstruction that the overlapped (outside) boat must give room for the inside boat to round safely, if no inside overlap established at 100 metres the boat behind must go outside or slow down and remain behind.
You can not judge a turning mark incident on the erroneous "overtaking boat keeps clear" premise, unless you are taking part in an Exe Rally where boats are only allowed to overtake on the 'outside'. But bear in mind we do not have chicanes just ovals.
The best outcome of an accident is that racing is safer afterwards.

Your last line is absolutely spot on! I was using the Nicolini crash as an example to then get people to apply the respective rules. I fear the PB1 rules will make the approaching boat think she can go through the inside without penalty. The most concentrated (and stressful time) for a circuit racing driver is (in many cases) fiddling with his trim, preparing to turn and trying to understand the screams in his/her ears from the navigator.

But so many incidents are caused at or around this point that it deserves special treatment...circuit racers I speak with say this present rule is dangerous as it almost encourages a possible collision/ T-bone. The boat to the rear HAS to take responsibility surely...as the driver has to look in front.

Anyway this should be under safety safety safety...sorry

 

[dowdy]

IMHO Florian put themselves in an inescapable position, never mind the rules. Commonsense and collision regs come first.

In my humble opion,Florian,without a shadow of a doubt,should have come across his wake and pass on the outside.If they were cars would be a 100%claim against Florian based on this vid,lovely boats tho.

 

[Cookee]

The most concentrated (and stressful time) for a circuit racing driver is (in many cases) fiddling with his trim, preparing to turn and trying to understand the screams in his/her ears from the navigator.

Sorry to be pedantic but to me and I presume others "Circuit racing" is single single seat cats and the like, but I assume you mean things like OCR and shorter course offshore racing?

IMHO I think the overlap rule is there to give the overtaking boat some rights once he is alongside to prevent the outside boat shoving him into the buoy - surely you have to write a rule that takes account of that as well? It's difficult to write rules that are fair to everyone and take account of as many different situations as possible - I'm not saying the current rules are any where near perfect though!

 

[cooolaii]

In my humble opion,Florian,without a shadow of a doubt,should have come across his wake and pass on the outside.If they were cars would be a 100%claim against Florian based on this vid,lovely boats tho.

Hi ,i spoke to Nicolini a week after the race in Dubai as he ask for my lap top to see the crash on a usb he had .

His thoughts were that he recons the xcat infront should have seen him come through the mirros and given way ,personally i learnt on my first race that mirrors can have a blind spot depending exactly were boat behind is ,what he meant was that the xcat infront was going towards the bouy at the ungle u can all see on the video heading towards the bouy , his point was that if the xcat he hit would have gone round the bouy nice and wide instead of aiming to it ,he would have turned nicely on the inside of him both parrarel .

My thought were even if he was faster than the other boat ,the other boat got to the bouy first , he should have gone across his wake AND the other wake u can see on the video too , hew new he was over lapping them so he would have over taken them seconds later .

I must say it`s easy to chat about it when u see the video, but as most of u know when racing vision and thoughts can be different .

 

[dowdy]

Hiya Coolali,I personally would never rely on "mirrors" in a boat,waste of space,my co-driver would have got a serious bollicking after that incident,it would have been his job to let me know some one was having a go on the inside,could have gone out wide and let him take the buoy,would have saved the boat and two new powerheads then,still thats racing for you,**** happens.

 

[Tony Davis]

I suspect mirrors would be needed as the viz is pretty limited.

 

[cooolaii]

I suspect mirrors would be needed as the viz is pretty limited.

Hi ,yes mirrors have to be on the boat anyway .

I stayed for unextra 2 weeks in Dubai after the race to continue working on ma boat with the help of boat number 11 Extreme Marine and i saw what was done on them 2 powerheads also by them too in there premises ,Rashid ALmarri`s crew and even Rashid on occasions, both engines got stipped down to the last nut and bolt in 2 big plastic basings with petrol i think, every little item got polished by hand etc for days and days ,then eventually they put it back togehter again and Nicolini came to take the boat all mended just ready to get painted again i ain`t an engineer or expert but i must say what a cracking job .

 

[Techteam]

So completely the wrong place I know but what did you do with the ECU's to dry them out ?

Hi ,yes mirrors have to be on the boat anyway .

I stayed for unextra 2 weeks in Dubai after the race to continue working on ma boat with the help of boat number 11 Extreme Marine and i saw what was done on them 2 powerheads also by them too in there premises ,Rashid ALmarri`s crew and even Rashid on occasions, both engines got stipped down to the last nut and bolt in 2 big plastic basings with petrol i think, every little item got polished by hand etc for days and days ,then eventually they put it back togehter again and Nicolini came to take the boat all mended just ready to get painted again i ain`t an engineer or expert but i must say what a cracking job .

 

[cooolaii]

So completely the wrong place I know but what did you do with the ECU's to dry them out ?

Hi ,actually i think that`s the only part i never saw them work on the engines .maybe new ones were going on ,i dont really know .sorry.

 

[Techteam]

So if/when you go back you might want to ask.

Hi ,actually i think that`s the only part i never saw them work on the engines .maybe new ones were going on ,i dont really know .sorry.

 

[kiwiracer]

For what it is worth I found myself in exactly the same position as the Florian boatcoming up on a Formula Honda boat, we were doing over a 100 and he was doing 60, bear in mind the other boat was an open boat and it would have been easier (and he should have been) for the co-driver to look behind before they turned, we backed off and took the buoy out, would have t-boned the honda boat and probably killed them, at the end of the day it is the boat overtaking that gives way but an overtaken boat must also give racing room.

 

[Scream-it.com]

Hiya Coolali,I personally would never rely on "mirrors" in a boat,waste of space,my co-driver would have got a serious bollicking after that incident,it would have been his job to let me know some one was having a go on the inside,could have gone out wide and let him take the buoy,would have saved the boat and two new powerheads then,still thats racing for you,**** happens.

So where was the navigator in this boat? The driver was on the right and the throttleman on the left the latter would have had no chance at all to see Florian

It is clear to any seafaring person and that the boat behind must give way to avoid collision.

The point of the exercise though is to question why, if there are international rules for the prevention of collisions, are there not a set of rules governing racing standards internatianally? Who created the PB1 overlap rule? And why does it contradict other rules?

On what basis was it created, whose advice was sought, what statistics were gathered to determine risk?

See what I mean about technical direction?

 

[Cookee]

Do X Cats use the UIM overtaking rules or WPPA or a special X Cat rule - why don't we all use the UIM overtaking rules if that works or is that broken as well?