classes - Page 5

motorvator · 02-03-2014, 10:14 PM

And no 'Blueprinting' as I understand it?

OCRDA · 02-03-2014, 10:28 PM

No need to blueprint a 150 putting out over 180hp !! And you will be amazed what motors are actually EPA Compliant !!

motorvator · 02-03-2014, 10:53 PM

Not really sure what the point is Bob?

Is that before they tried to bend it or after?

If you are suggesting before then it matters not. The engine is available in that stock form to anyone and they have no need to chase the latest bend with a chequebook to remain competitive surely?

If after, then perhaps they are not as good at this 'blueprinting' lark as they think.

OCRDA · 02-03-2014, 11:25 PM

My point is that the current classes don't reflect the engines being used.
Turn up with a 150 and get blown away by a 175 or 200 ! I know it's always been this way but why keep pretending ! We all know that a 150ho is same engine as 200 as is the XS so why not call the class V200 ?
Same applies to 3c being referred to as 2litre ! Etc.
Sad reality is there is very little control over the rules so why not align the rules with reality ?
I have no issues with the engines only the misleading classes.

motorvator · 03-03-2014, 12:11 AM

The difficulty is the different directions taken in achieving that EPA, meaning the old method of cylinder capacity became a nonsense.

To my mind we need to follow the route of accepting that the manufacturer is marketing the engine as a certain horsepower. It is obvious that no manufacturer will claim a greater power than can be delivered, as that would just open them to claims right left and centre. So it's a given that all brand spanking engines are going to produce a certain amount more than is stated on the tin.

Obviously the graph you posted above is somewhat meaningless as we don't know the conditions it was run under or whether the dyno has been verified. But you can be sure that a 150 HO will likely produce 150 HP in the most adverse conditions.

Taken one step further. The manufacturer recognising the premium paid for a 175HP over a 150HP motor is hardly likely to market it as the lower horsepower if he can command that premium.

That of course has been the case forever so trying to prove that one manufacturer is under quoting their figures more than the other seems not only a bit pointless but nothing to do with EPA engines either.

Personally I am for following the Scandy route of EPA engines and run them out of the box. Everybody then knows what they up against and can make their choice accordingly.

It's also the way class 3 has gone and the reason Jack is starting out there. We know what we are up against.

Of course if someone wanted to run an open modified class then that is a different story and would be for them to determine but likely wouldn't attract many.

Captain Chaos · 03-03-2014, 12:27 AM

In practice though, a route for racing with production only motors (EPA or course) is a route where the opportunity is givenfor a competitor to choose whatever motor they wish, so long as it is what it says on the Lid.

"One" can choose to run Merc, Rude, Suzuki, 2S, 4S ..... even a Selva if they happen to believe that although Selva call it a 150hp, its really 2 Zillion hp and so they have the edge. But get caught bending a motor in any way shape or form and licenses should revoked & the person invited to "F*ck off" on a permanent basis.

All IMHO of course!

Zander · 03-03-2014, 06:01 AM

A stock Pro Xs does NOT have over 180 BHP. Neither does a H.O but a H.O is a tad quicker i belive cus of the extra revs.
Lundins have modified tons of ECU's in the past. They fixed my 50 Merc to a 60. So that test could have been with a modified engine.

OCRDA · 03-03-2014, 07:55 AM

What hp is a stock 150ho ? What do the manufacturers claim on their spec ?

BAT23 · 03-03-2014, 08:30 AM

Well I guess they claim 150hp. The whole idea is that what ever hp the manufacture claims, is what's being considered, even tough it might be 165hp.

The point was to creat an class that was easy to start with and understand. The classes also have a weight ratio so you could run a smaller engine and still be competitive.

No class is fair or equal, but the fact is that the V/W classes has be come really popular so I guess people accept the fact that if they perhaps don't spend they won't win, but you could still race.

So yes buying a XS / HO will give advantages, same with building a new boat.

Renegade · 03-03-2014, 08:47 AM

seriously dont bother trying to argue this with him. as for misleading classes? Pot, Kettle and black?

Paul E · 03-03-2014, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Chaos

In practice though, a route for racing with production only motors (EPA or course) is a route where the opportunity is givenfor a competitor to choose whatever motor they wish, so long as it is what it says on the Lid.

"One" can choose to run Merc, Rude, Suzuki, 2S, 4S ..... even a Selva if they happen to believe that although Selva call it a 150hp, its really 2 Zillion hp and so they have the edge. But get caught bending a motor in any way shape or form and licenses should revoked & the person invited to "F*ck off" on a permanent basis.

All IMHO of course!

Spot on. I'll protest anyone I suspect of bending their motors here in September, and I'd expect anyone else who's racing by the rules to do the same.

Simple fact is that if it's sold as 150hp, the serial number and diagnostics match as a 150hp rated motor then it's legal. There's not much price difference between the HO or Pro XS and standard models, you pay your money and make your choice, and you leave it as it left the crate. Simple!

Zander · 03-03-2014, 09:21 AM

However you are allowed to modify the gearcase.

motorvator · 03-03-2014, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul E

Spot on. I'll protest anyone I suspect of bending their motors here in September, and I'd expect anyone else who's racing by the rules to do the same.

Simple fact is that if it's sold as 150hp, the serial number and diagnostics match as a 150hp rated motor then it's legal. There's not much price difference between the HO or Pro XS and standard models, you pay your money and make your choice, and you leave it as it left the crate. Simple!

Yeah and you'll be the first one getting a protest if you run a 150 HO.

Paul E · 03-03-2014, 09:49 AM

Hahaha I don't think it would fit under the V4 cowl!

Gear case mods are fine, as are mounts and steering mount points, but the powerhead should remain as stock as the day it left the factory. It's not hard! Powerboat racing is never going to be a 'cheap' sport, but there are plenty of classes for the big budget guys to splash the cash on. There has to be entry level and affordable classes for the sport to survive and progress, and the easiest way to achieve that is to have classes for stock motors that anyone can stroll into a dealer and buy. One make classes such as P1SS aren't for everyone, they're certainly not for me.

motorvator · 03-03-2014, 10:07 AM

I think what is sadly being missed with all this modding engines crap Paul is that Class 3 has a good contingent of boats going for the worlds this year.

A dozen National races for them as well so if anyone wants to go competitive racing it is there on a plate for them.

Most importantly though there is a camaraderie building from the like minded thought process.

OCRDA · 03-03-2014, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motorvator

I think what is sadly being missed with all this modding engines crap Paul is that Class 3 has a good contingent of boats going for the worlds this year.

A dozen National races for them as well so if anyone wants to go competitive racing it is there on a plate for them.

Most importantly though there is a camaraderie building from the like minded thought process.

Agree 100% but there also has to be a place for those not wishing to bin what they have and have to spend out on new kit ! I have been down the etec route with the 130 and 115 ho !!
There are still some of us with an interest in tight offshore short circuit type racing and it really is very simple for us to all play nicely together as Rhino proved when he was chairman of ORDA !
We will have to agree to disagree on levels of modification.
As you said earlier lets get on with what promises to be a good season for Powerboat Racing !!

Renegade · 03-03-2014, 11:52 AM

so why didnt you want to phase out carbed motors then? And set a date to which everyone knew to not buy old motors then?

like a 4 year period of notice?

OCRDA · 03-03-2014, 12:47 PM

Because they are too much fun for the money !!

Also have found out that they are EPA Compliant so why change something that works!!

EPA Certificate Number Yamaha 90 YMX-MSI-07.16
Yamaha 115 YMX-MSI-08.19

Paul E · 03-03-2014, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCRDA

Because they are too much fun for the money !!

Also have found out that they are EPA Compliant so why change something that works!!

EPA Certificate Number Yamaha 90 YMX-MSI-07.16
Yamaha 115 YMX-MSI-08.19

If the Yam 90 is EPA compliant, then surely they can still race the worlds in standard form to fit the EPA motor regs?

motorvator · 03-03-2014, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCRDA

Because they are too much fun for the money !!

Also have found out that they are EPA Compliant so why change something that works!!

EPA Certificate Number Yamaha 90 YMX-MSI-07.16
Yamaha 115 YMX-MSI-08.19

Think you need to look closer at that EPA cert Bob. Doesn't it run out in 2010 due to being gained by using EPA credits from other parts of the business?