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Old 19-07-2010, 12:55 PM   #1
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Safety Safety Safety



Continuing safety discussion from Shelley's accident thread...

Should we have technical direction in UK circuit racing as we do in Xcat?

Is PB1 rule on overtaking on a mark "a right to T-Bone"? - not my quote but I think an extremely important point.

Also do we analyse the exact reasons for incidents, collate the stats and research potential avoidance such as: Why does the boat hook on a front runners wake on a corner and why did I throw my navigator out of the boat to be missed by the boats behind me?

If we do, how is this communicated to existing and new crews?
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Old 19-07-2010, 01:06 PM   #2
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Safety when racing

This has to be a priority I think.

Two accidents in such a close timescale, suggests a possible boat design fault, dare I suggest ?
Stepped hulls are often "Twitchy", but more knowledgeable persons than I can no doubt confirm or deny than.

That the latest accident happened in practice, & that, we understand, the hull virtually disintegrated when it "stuffed" must mean something.

What the sport does NOT need however, is/are more restrictions, training, etc, which was the result of the "Dover" tragedy.
Shelley has enough driving experience, over varied classes of boat, to make her an undoubted expert offshore.

My bet is still with the design/build of the boat.

Any designers care to set up an investigative group ?
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Old 19-07-2010, 01:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin The Talker View Post
This has to be a priority I think.

Two accidents in such a close timescale, suggests a possible boat design fault, dare I suggest ?
Stepped hulls are often "Twitchy", but more knowledgeable persons than I can no doubt confirm or deny than.

That the latest accident happened in practice, & that, we understand, the hull virtually disintegrated when it "stuffed" must mean something.

What the sport does NOT need however, is/are more restrictions, training, etc, which was the result of the "Dover" tragedy.
Shelley has enough driving experience, over varied classes of boat, to make her an undoubted expert offshore.

My bet is still with the design/build of the boat.

Any designers care to set up an investigative group ?
From looking at the video of Shelley's first accident it looked like the boat was quite unsettled coming into the turn and it didn't look to be a big hook from the outside - the on board footage says different.

The steps would have had little or no effect on a boat stuffing as it appears to have done in the second accident and the boat breaking apart is a construction issue - not strong enough and possibly structural damage gone unnoticed from previous use although this was a new boat this season as far as I know.

I'm not a big fan of stand up boats and the crews ability to prevent a collision with the dashboard would be severely limited from a stand up position - I have raced one briefly and I always felt the dash to be a bit close! I'm not sure what the perceived advantage of a stand up boat is - can anyone enlighten me?
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Old 19-07-2010, 03:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin The Talker View Post
This has to be a priority I think.

Two accidents in such a close timescale, suggests a possible boat design fault, dare I suggest ?
Stepped hulls are often "Twitchy", but more knowledgeable persons than I can no doubt confirm or deny than.

That the latest accident happened in practice, & that, we understand, the hull virtually disintegrated when it "stuffed" must mean something.

What the sport does NOT need however, is/are more restrictions, training, etc, which was the result of the "Dover" tragedy.
Shelley has enough driving experience, over varied classes of boat, to make her an undoubted expert offshore.

My bet is still with the design/build of the boat.

Any designers care to set up an investigative group ?

It would be better to talk continuous ongoing development - nobody wants to restrict the activity. But it is key to have the process driven by a group of experts say like this:

Medical
Structural
Racing tecniques
R&D

I mention R&D as I am particularly fascinated about the hooking issue. When I did it in Liverpool 08 I saw the curve of the wake on the mark and dropped in it and next thing the hull whipped and Nikki Sanders went over my shoulders. It was identical to Gavin Parsonage and Nathan Libby (see youtube below) two weeks before on my wake in Lowestoft 08. It's always fascinated me and someone with some scientific knowledge could research that and it would reduce risks massively if I knew what to to to avoid it. Angle of entry into spreading curved wake, trim position, power on or off....that type of thing. If we had a logger how useful it would have been...has anyone logged this type of incident?

You can't blame this on the Honda engine weight as it happens in all V classes ...there was a nice shot of P1 last year too.

See what I mean. Now just a small amount effort on this question could save injuries if everyone knew what to do to avoid it...cos I'm still puzzled to be honest...

CHECK THIS OUT:



It shows exactly what I mean and these boys are very experienced. (Sorry Gav couldn't resist it! But shows exactly the issue.
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Old 19-07-2010, 03:46 PM   #5
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From the look of that video Gavin bounced down onto the inside of the wake throwing the boat onto its outside and dumping one of the crew - The boats that are prone to spinning out in P1 are the old Outerlimits Lucas Oil boat that destroyed itself in Sweden last year, and the Metamarine hulls which have even spun in a straight line!

Someone like Adam or Lorne Campbell who are heavily into step design would be able to make a more informed comment than I, but I reckon it's a hull design cause and effect, and understanding your individual hulls limitations and characteristics is paramount when racing.

I read that Shelley and Patrick had moved the ballast around in the boat before the first accident - presumably aft - maybe they moved it too far forward to try and compensate causing the boat to stuff?

One thing is certain, in racing most if not all stepped hull boats, trimming in and or lifting off mid turn is likely to initiate a spin.
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Old 19-07-2010, 04:03 PM   #6
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were is the video of the Shelley accident?
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Old 19-07-2010, 04:14 PM   #7
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[QUOTE=Cookee;185139]From the look of that video Gavin bounced down onto the inside of the wake throwing the boat onto its outside and dumping one of the crew - The boats that are prone to spinning out in P1 are the old Outerlimits Lucas Oil boat that destroyed itself in Sweden last year, and the Metamarine hulls which have even spun in a straight line!

Funny thing was as soon as I turned to go inside them on the turn I expected it...you can feel the boat go before it actually hooks...a feeling hard to describe.

But there is an answer and each crew should be advised how to avoid it...
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Old 19-07-2010, 06:49 PM   #8
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Overlap Rule

From PB1;At turn marks Ė if an overlap exists, the boat that is ahead shall give the boat that is behind room and opportunity to round the turn mark safely. Should the outside boat not leave enough room for the inside boat, the outside boat shall be penalised. Should the inside boat foul the outside boat when enough room has been given, the inside boat shall be penalised.
Interpret 'Safely'-Give way/back off and let him through ?or stay side by side giving enough room ?How much is enough room ?The thickness of a 'RIZLA' ? Nic
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Old 19-07-2010, 07:32 PM   #9
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From PB1;At turn marks Ė if an overlap exists, the boat that is ahead shall give the boat that is behind room and opportunity to round the turn mark safely. Should the outside boat not leave enough room for the inside boat, the outside boat shall be penalised. Should the inside boat foul the outside boat when enough room has been given, the inside boat shall be penalised.
Interpret 'Safely'-Give way/back off and let him through ?or stay side by side giving enough room ?How much is enough room ?The thickness of a 'RIZLA' ? Nic
And what If "The boat that is behind" has gained the overlap on the outside ??

Why is there a difference between Overtaking whilst approaching a mark, rounding a mark, passing an obstacle and on a straight ?? Surely overtaking is Overtaking !!
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Old 19-07-2010, 07:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin The Talker View Post
That the latest accident happened in practice, & that, we understand, the hull virtually disintegrated when it "stuffed" must mean something.
Yeah, I would suggest a sensible set of rules that don't promote silly light builds, or ultra high powered, fast boats.

Trouble is, everyone will agree, until they want a racing advantage, or to buy some cheap yank egg box to race, then all the rules arguments will kick off.

QED
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Old 19-07-2010, 09:49 PM   #11
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And what If "The boat that is behind" has gained the overlap on the outside ??

Why is there a difference between Overtaking whilst approaching a mark, rounding a mark, passing an obstacle and on a straight ?? Surely overtaking is Overtaking !!
Quite agree. The existing rule in UK is inviting a collision. Like I said before the driving line for boats is not in a narrow track like cars. This means there are multiple ways to bring down the average lap time - unlike F1 cars which hold a pretty similar line. But loggers or transponders like Virtual Eye would help...how about getting some lottery money to spread the costs and use the virtual eye to enhance circuit racing and replay incidents to offenders to correct their bravados?

Now there's a thought eh? Spread the cost around the classes or get them to attend the same events even; to make a bigger event...now there's a thought eh?
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Old 20-07-2010, 09:02 AM   #12
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Lottery money for a motor sport? You really are dreaming now! Probably not even for kids!
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Old 20-07-2010, 09:44 AM   #13
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Lottery money for a motor sport? You really are dreaming now! Probably not even for kids!
yep not even for kids these days............
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Old 20-07-2010, 11:32 AM   #14
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race 10 metre rib's with 50hp on the back then you wouldn't need rules.
(jokeing) ******* health and safety are a pain in the arse.
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Old 21-07-2010, 01:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookee View Post
From the look of that video Gavin bounced down onto the inside of the wake throwing the boat onto its outside and dumping one of the crew - The boats that are prone to spinning out in P1 are the old Outerlimits Lucas Oil boat that destroyed itself in Sweden last year, and the Metamarine hulls which have even spun in a straight line!

Someone like Adam or Lorne Campbell who are heavily into step design would be able to make a more informed comment than I, but I reckon it's a hull design cause and effect, and understanding your individual hulls limitations and characteristics is paramount when racing.

I read that Shelley and Patrick had moved the ballast around in the boat before the first accident - presumably aft - maybe they moved it too far forward to try and compensate causing the boat to stuff?

One thing is certain, in racing most if not all stepped hull boats, trimming in and or lifting off mid turn is likely to initiate a spin.
Just from my findings and work with step designs. Originally my work was very much theory based and then experimental and much development has followed. This never stops and hopefully we improve and learn.

I think we can get to situations whereby stepped hulls perform and handle really well. For example with some leisure stepped hull designs I will scarifice a touch of speed for a boat that will handle and turn in a safe way.

However it is obvious that a stepped hull is far more complicated - and as such there are far more ways in which a builder can make mistakes -or produce boats that are not suitable for certain set-ups. So like all boats it is possible to design or make good and bad boats - but will probably show up even more when steps are introduced. There are many areas to consider, but the following are also important:
- many step boats also have planing pads and that has a big effect on handling in turns
- boat set-up and weight positions can be more critical
- driving skills are often different
- there are a lot of boats out there that design wise have been hacked around and steps added. It can be done - but it is more difficult than starting from scratch and more knowledge is required whilst often less knowledge is often involved.

I don't know if any these are relavant in the case of Shelley's boat - but just a few general thoughts.

Really fascinating area of design and so many different aspects to look at.....
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Old 22-07-2010, 12:21 PM   #16
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Just from my findings and work with step designs. Originally my work was very much theory based and then experimental and much development has followed. This never stops and hopefully we improve and learn.

I think we can get to situations whereby stepped hulls perform and handle really well. For example with some leisure stepped hull designs I will scarifice a touch of speed for a boat that will handle and turn in a safe way.

However it is obvious that a stepped hull is far more complicated - and as such there are far more ways in which a builder can make mistakes -or produce boats that are not suitable for certain set-ups. So like all boats it is possible to design or make good and bad boats - but will probably show up even more when steps are introduced. There are many areas to consider, but the following are also important:
- many step boats also have planing pads and that has a big effect on handling in turns
- boat set-up and weight positions can be more critical
- driving skills are often different
- there are a lot of boats out there that design wise have been hacked around and steps added. It can be done - but it is more difficult than starting from scratch and more knowledge is required whilst often less knowledge is often involved.

I don't know if any these are relavant in the case of Shelley's boat - but just a few general thoughts.

Really fascinating area of design and so many different aspects to look at.....
Interestingly for me we made a major change in strengthening the back step and through reduction of flex I reckon the ride feels better along with the teflon coating which defintely stops the boat diggin in so hard on my typically tight style of turning..

But also let's not forget the impact of position in turns too set by props. GMC and I changed from a Honda 'standard' race prop to a 3 blade cleaver...the boat was a different boat....in turns and definitely on the straight. So the whole setup thing is so important as you say. But the thing is with the Honda example above, there must be a way to avoid that if only I and others knew technically ...exactly what to do to avoid it. Then in those days with 18 boats we could have been briefed by safety on how to avoid this classic incident..rather than being left to our own inexperienced devices.
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Old 22-07-2010, 01:15 PM   #17
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Interestingly for me we made a major change in strengthening the back step and through reduction of flex I reckon the ride feels better along with the teflon coating which defintely stops the boat diggin in so hard on my typically tight style of turning..

But also let's not forget the impact of position in turns too set by props. GMC and I changed from a Honda 'standard' race prop to a 3 blade cleaver...the boat was a different boat....in turns and definitely on the straight. So the whole setup thing is so important as you say. But the thing is with the Honda example above, there must be a way to avoid that if only I and others knew technically ...exactly what to do to avoid it. Then in those days with 18 boats we could have been briefed by safety on how to avoid this classic incident..rather than being left to our own inexperienced devices.
You have just touched on a subject I feel strongly about. I do not agree in any way on prop control. Like the honda prop lottery for example or using one brand of prop! Prop's are as important as tires are to race bikes and need to be tuned to the drivers needs, this will make boats handle better and safer. To me it shows up who ever makes these decisions and what they really know. Rant over.
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Old 22-07-2010, 02:32 PM   #18
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You have just touched on a subject I feel strongly about. I do not agree in any way on prop control. Like the honda prop lottery for example or using one brand of prop! Prop's are as important as tires are to race bikes and need to be tuned to the drivers needs, this will make boats handle better and safer. To me it shows up who ever makes these decisions and what they really know. Rant over.
Without a single prop policy in the new Superstock series the boats would be going a lot faster than they already are with 300XS's - of course if they had 200XS's it wouldn't be a problem!
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Old 22-07-2010, 02:54 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=Scream-it.com;185143]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookee View Post
From the look of that video Gavin bounced down onto the inside of the wake throwing the boat onto its outside and dumping one of the crew - The boats that are prone to spinning out in P1 are the old Outerlimits Lucas Oil boat that destroyed itself in Sweden last year, and the Metamarine hulls which have even spun in a straight line!

Funny thing was as soon as I turned to go inside them on the turn I expected it...you can feel the boat go before it actually hooks...a feeling hard to describe.

But there is an answer and each crew should be advised how to avoid it...
Kitten has quite rightly pointed out that I didn't actually make it clear that the Honda video was not a hook at all but rather a somewhat unique handling issue that is rarely seen in other boats.

I would describe a hook as the bow taking on a life of its own and turning towards the inside of the turn violently and therefore possibly ejecting one or more members of the crew, this can also result in damage to the boat caused by the very high water pressure on the hull directly beneath the join.

Many people will have experienced bow steering when the boat is going downwind in large waves and the boat tries to turn one way or another when burying the bow - this is the same but more extreme!
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Old 22-07-2010, 09:56 PM   #20
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Without a single prop policy in the new Superstock series the boats would be going a lot faster than they already are with 300XS's - of course if they had 200XS's it wouldn't be a problem!
Going faster than what Cookie? Rumour has it the 300s have a little 'safe mode problem' and your local boat has a little problem in finishing? One knowledgeable person said in Perfwelliiiiiiiii a Honda engine would have won in the rough!



Whoops! Nearly slipped back into it,,,,oh and then there's the alternators?

Safety is the word for Superstock as Safe mode kicks in beautifully apparently!

But then with freebie engines who cares eh?

I'm just jealous they didn't ring me up to offer me one!!!
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