New class Hotboats is launched - Page 3

KINPACIFIST · 26-09-2006, 11:32 PM

I fully agree with JF, its simple. After the race the boats should be at their lightest. So if your weight is ok after the race it must have been ok when fuelled up.

However for this to be so simple, one issue needs to be looked at.
Are bow/trim/ballast tanks and their pick ups & dumps allowed?
If so, weight scrutineering will not be so simple. Thats why P1 banned them, shame as it makes the boats safer in rough conditions.

On the same subject, I am very interested on the dyno testing procedure, timing and cost issues. ie how will this work in reality?
Again P1 have the same problem, their answer has been to only allow standard non modified engines from the consumer catalogue. This rule is useless & difficult to police as P1 have proved this year. I have no ideas re a solution to this problem, hence my interest re the practicality of dyno testing. Anyone else got any ideas?

I would suggest that we ie interested parties, meet on Saturday
@ 17:10 in the race briefing room, so we can all make our position
and views clear. Thoughts?

Cheers & be safe

Paul

Jon Fuller · 27-09-2006, 07:55 AM

The issue of weight & power policing is indeed a major one.

It's nothing new though, as hidden/secret ballast tanks and the like, have been around for donkey's years.

With the modern engines, and their complex management systems, even a dyno test 'on site' isn't guarenteed to be fair, as a decent & informed cheat, will be able dial in some 'advantage' electronically whilst on the water, and dial it 'out' again, when back at the dock for his post race scrutineering/dyno test.

Whilst an equally well informed scrutineer may be able to spot the equipment or signs of this happening, in reality, the scrutineers are just volunteers, so we can't expect them all to be engine management experts.

Having pointed out all the problems, I don't have an answer!

I reckon, if you looked really closely, some of the leading P1 boats, are running a hidden bow ballast tank system. As the pitch stability in the rough of some of those boats, would be very hard indeed to achieve without shiftable weight, at least it would, when you see how well they also run in the calm.

Just MHO of course.

flightracingteam · 02-10-2006, 08:36 PM

If sum one is going to cheat then there will cheat all we can do is the best we can to stop it and if there need to cheat to win well it is not a win at all.

KINPACIFIST · 03-10-2006, 02:39 AM

Agreed Gary. Having read all the threads concerning Hotboat series I would like to high light a thought.

In essence this will be a UK P1 series. The majority of us will need financial sponsors. The spirit of P1 SS & Hotboat is to have cheap, close, big boat racing. If this can be achieved the following is more likely, more compeditors enter than leave, increased media interest & therefore greater sponsorship possibilities.

When Gary 1st told me of his plans, he knew of at least 7 boats similar to mine. ie 28 Phantoms, old 6ltr boats, Donzi's, Formula's
etc that people allready own, but can't have fun racing because if you want to race bigger boats, your only choice is P1 which is very expensive to compete in.

I hear all these people talking about building this & that, and buying such un such engines. If you have money to throw away then good luck. An open check book will 9 times out of 10 make you faster than the rest. You will be lapping everyone, your performance will mean little personally, you may become champion! But having the biggest cheque book does earn respect and admiration from your fellow compeditors, where skill and courage does. It's the same arguement for those who want to cheat. If your a pro athlete and by cheating you can give your familly certain financial security, then cheating may have it's benefits. However in amateur sport, its about striving to get better for your pride and respect of others.

Also if you win by a mile the first year the chances are that there won't be a second year. Other compeditors with lower budgets, will have a choice, either they spend what money they have & run with no chance of winning, they try to attract sponsors to compete or they give up. If one boat is dominating, media interest falls & therefore sponsorship is harder to obtain. End result is a race of one is not a race...end of series!!!!

I raced this year at Cowes P1 over a 100hp down with no chance of winning. My objective was to do the best I could, with what I had & basically not come last. (also have a good laugh)
I could do this for a while, but then my goals would shift. I would not continue, if I had no chance of winning.

If all are sensible, Gary's idea will be fantastic. If 1 or 2 don't agree with me and have money to burn, then we would better buying 10 or so Chaudron 25's limiting HP to 300 any make. This would have a set up cost of around £23k per team and would create 80mph close offshore racing. With this low entry cost & guaranteed close racing, team numbers would probably increase not decline.

I prefer Gary's idea as I do not want to buy a new boat!

We need to look long term not short term for a sustainable series.

No comments about beer intake.....4/5pints hence the spelling.

Cheers

Tony Davis · 03-10-2006, 05:18 AM

Bit confused by that last post, as you seem to be saying that the class is best suited to existing sportsboats and old race boats that no longer have a class to race in, and that it would be wrong to either build a quick motor, or a new boat specifically for this class. And that having the biggest cheque book doesn't earn you the respect of the other competitors. You need skill and courage for that!

So how much would you say you'll have spent changing from 225 optis to 250 xs's, and then to 300 xs's. I dare say an amount that alot of people would consider to be "cheque book racing".

As for this "it's more important to take part than it is to win" outlook, it's IMHO the very reason why England is so crap at sport.

Especially as you then contradict yourself!

Quote:

Originally posted by KINPACIFIST
I would not continue, if I had no chance of winning.

I really think that trying to tailor this class around the varied boats that are already out there, and giving the usual bunch of no hopers a way of racing is the very reason why this class would fail.

The answer is a clear cut set of rules, cast in stone for a minimum number of years....otherwise this will end up the same as the old production/T class, that is massaging the rules to sell more licences!

BluFin · 03-10-2006, 11:50 AM

Yeh....... like "Flushable bow chain locker"

Jon Fuller · 03-10-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KINPACIFIST
When Gary 1st told me of his plans, he knew of at least 7 boats similar to mine. ie 28 Phantoms, old 6ltr boats, Donzi's, Formula's
etc that people allready own, but can't have fun racing because if you want to race bigger boats, your only choice is P1 which is very expensive to compete in.

That's not true!
If a half dozen guys with boats of of the type you 're talking about, phoned the RYA, they could be racing in 'T' or 'GT' class the following week. The only reason it's not currently listed, is the lask of interest.

Also, I wouldn't include 6 litre in your list, as I really don't think you appreciate the mamouth difference there is between a decent 6 litre cat, and the class of boats your talking about.

Quote:

Originally posted by KINPACIFIST
we would better buying 10 or so Chaudron 25's limiting HP to 300 any make.

Paul, This is genuinly your LAST ever warning. I'm aware that it was 'kinfast-o-clock', but I promise you now, that you will be a permanent 'ex' member of boatmad if you yank my chain once more! Do you understand?
I'm asking if you understand, so I can quote your answer when you do it again, whilst I'm clicking the 'ban forever' button.

If you wanna promote an 'almost one design' racing of class, there are plenty to quote/suggest that are legitimate, and a few that are even British.

Just in case you don't understand any of the above, I will not have you, or anyone, promoting, or pushing those boats, on this site.

BluFin · 03-10-2006, 01:54 PM

Hope it don’t come to it, sure it was a tounge in cheek ref mentioned purley as thats the model owned But tell ya what I think is so double standard.
You turn up to a national or international race with a pattern cowling on ya merc from Gav or Tank and your out, not allowed no no musn’t do it, it’s in the book genuine manufacture item only.
Yet I can splash any hull and race a non genuine non OEM hull as long as I have proper merc cowls fitted. Powers to be are using double standards and I find that an amusing anomaly. No getting at Kindfast or any Chaudron owner just a rather bewildering situation of affairs from the top.
Cant rip off a cowling but you can a boat

flightracingteam · 03-10-2006, 02:00 PM

Hotboats is for all boats that meet the rules and is never going to be one class racing and yes Jon is right as to T OR GT class but this class did not let you run with outboards and had more red tape then hotboats will have. the red tape is reason that racing in the uk is going the way it is at the moment all i can do is my best to get racing back to were it needs to be with less red tape so we can all go and have a good weekend racing and have safe fun at the same time.

Tony Davis · 03-10-2006, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flightracingteam
as to T OR GT class but this class did not let you run with outboards

You don't want to tell Rory Power that, his claim to fame is winning T class at Grimsby in his outboard powered Phantom 28, and I seem to remember Charles Gardener making a fool of him self in his outboard powered Saber. It may have said in the rule book that outboards weren't allowed, but thats never stopped the RYA when there's licences and measurement certificates to be sold.

Jon Fuller · 03-10-2006, 08:13 PM

Actually, both Rory & Gardner, ran engines that were totaly ilegal according to the rules.

The rules stated, that grandfather rights allowed OB boats to run in the class, that is, OB's as per the old National Production Class, which at the time were any 200hp (prop-rated) production (from the domestic motor catalogue, not the highperformance catalogue) motors, and that motors such as the XR2 etc. were outlawed.
Rory Power & Charles Gardner both ran 2.5 EFI Offshores, both of which's motors were heavily worked.

So it wasn't so much red tape that fu*cked up 'T' Class, it was the RYA's enforcement of the rules, or lack of it.

TD, Ben & myself, spent many hours at the RYA beating out the rules with them/each other, and it was all a waste of time, coz they never enforced a thing. Basically, anyone who asked for dispensation to race an illegal boat, got it. Wonderfull managment!

Ho Hum.

KINPACIFIST · 05-10-2006, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
That's not true!
If a half dozen guys with boats of of the type you 're talking about, phoned the RYA, they could be racing in 'T' or 'GT' class the following week. The only reason it's not currently listed, is the lask of interest.

Also, I wouldn't include 6 litre in your list, as I really don't think you appreciate the mamouth difference there is between a decent 6 litre cat, and the class of boats your talking about.

Paul, This is genuinly your LAST ever warning. I'm aware that it was 'kinfast-o-clock', but I promise you now, that you will be a permanent 'ex' member of boatmad if you yank my chain once more! Do you understand?
I'm asking if you understand, so I can quote your answer when you do it again, whilst I'm clicking the 'ban forever' button.

Sorry, no promo intented, lack of thought on my part...I understand.

If you wanna promote an 'almost one design' racing of class, there are plenty to quote/suggest that are legitimate, and a few that are even British.

Just in case you don't understand any of the above, I will not have you, or anyone, promoting, or pushing those boats, on this site.

KINPACIFIST · 05-10-2006, 12:58 PM

Sorry, no promo intented, lack of thought on my part...I understand.

Sorry, don't know what happened with last post!!

the bandit · 05-10-2006, 01:31 PM

Don't mention the C word again on here

Red Devil · 05-10-2006, 05:11 PM

I reckon, if you looked really closely, some of the leading P1 boats, are running a hidden bow ballast tank system. As the pitch stability in the rough of some of those boats, would be very hard indeed to achieve without shiftable weight, at least it would, when you see how well they also run in the calm.

Just MHO of course. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Guys

I just had to comment on this as we hit this problem when they banned ballast in P1. A very well respected driver told me that if the boat was set up right and driven properly you should'nt need one. When the tanks were banned in P1 I was very nervous about the impact and how the boat would run particularly as we run in all conditions.

We do not have any hidden, secret ballast tanks and never have, the boat was simply built without them. We just spent a lot of time throughout the year balancing the boat and setting it up right. Maybe other boats differ but so far we have not missed it at all.

I was also taught to drive the F1 RIB without using one as well and when I finally got the confidence to drive in the rough without it (which I have to say took some doing!) the boat actually ran much better.

Just my thoughts.

Jon Fuller · 05-10-2006, 08:58 PM

Jackie, I wasn't refering to you at all.

I was actually thinking of one or two boats out there that run particularly level, even in the steepest of head seas.

Guess we'll never know.

JF

FabFour · 05-10-2006, 11:27 PM

Jackie won didnt she? Therefore she has to be cheating. If not a bow tank, then something else for sure.

Ben · 05-10-2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Fuller

I was actually thinking of one or two boats out there that run particularly level, even in the steepest of head seas.

JF

Stepped hulls by their nature run flatter but that Donzi seems exceptionally level.

Jon Fuller · 06-10-2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ben
Stepped hulls by their nature run flatter but that Donzi seems exceptionally level.

How very intuitive of you!

Obviously I'm not actually pointing any fingers.

Jon Fuller · 06-10-2006, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FabFour
Jackie won didnt she? Therefore she has to be cheating. If not a bow tank, then something else for sure.

Yes, agreed!
Could even be something as blatant and obvious as daring to drive well, or spending more time than they should setting up & ballancing the boat!

Absolutely ridiculous! IT MUST BE STOPPED!

If we don't put a stop to this stupid trend towards professionalism, we'll have to introduce a penalty system for those who persist in excelling, or the also-rans will be up in arms!!!!