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Old 26-08-2007, 11:52 AM   #1
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Where do we go from here ??

This is a continuation of the 'RANT' about where offshore racing is going...

In a nice sepearate thread so that those wanting to bash P1 can do it without interrupting us here!
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Old 26-08-2007, 11:57 AM   #2
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From the previous thread....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB-C
Don't forget also that IF trackers were fitted they would tell if someone had missed a mark OR passed it on the wrong side..... As for speed restrictions I have to totaly disagree with you Mark, and say that you are coming into/sorry came into a sport that bears absolutely no resemblence to it's title.. You circuit race it just happens to be in a bay on the sea and once a year you go round the island,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,60 miles WOW................. and you only need to keep turning right to get round and yet people still get lost!!!!!!!!
I appologise if I offend but you are being very nieve and showing a real lack of understanding.
ALL you comments are based on illogical rules and regs which bear no relation to what we are doing.
I believe it was you who said something about litigation etc Are you a lawyer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! because you are taking the sport not as a sport but as a place to avoid litigation, did you not learn anything from the Guernsey problem?? You were hard done by and cheated HOWEVER, you are playing into their hands...

I give up Marc you are missing the point..............This is supposed to be fun, not a legal battle, and if you miss a mark with GPS or run up a beach it is bad driving aswell as navigation and as the driver the but stops with you m8


Quote:
Originally Posted by verytricky
I think you are missing the point actually....

1) I dont mind the navigation by compass only. I dont think it will ever happen, because it simply can not be policed, and it gives the boat a distinct advantage, so it will be used.

2) P1 have to obey certain rules, else they are no longer pleasure navigation, they become another class. My intention is to offer a solution to an existing problem. You have a very successful series that is hitting its head on a stupid rule. The people who invented the rule will not allow the rule to be bent or moved/removed, so you have to find a way to race within the parameters given. It is not ideal, and I suggested about 12 months ago that there would come a time when 10 boats raced around a course, then lined up 10 meters from the finish line and watched their computers to tell them when to cross it. It is silly. It does not look good. I would prefer to restrict the boats in some or other way so they simply can not break the base rule of their category, and let them race. There are other ways - resrtictor plates on the air intakes, moore weight, but they can result in a super efficient engine winning everything, and not down to the boats. A speed limit enforced on the boats would put the boats together into a pack and force tight racing. That would look cool? I think so.

3) I dont get why you are unhappy with my comments on missing a mark? Perhaps you could re-read them? Or explain why you are unhappy with my comments.

4) The 'sport' is a wierd one. And I would like to see the fields of 12 V24's racing again. I am working to try get that! It is very very difficult to resolve these problems unless you are prepared to throw money at the problem. Honda and P1 succeed because they can throw money at their problems! It is very crap to race one or possibly two other boats - especially when there is no real race. This year Josh was great, because he can beat me! It makes the race an actual race. There is a definate chance I can loose by being out driven. He has decided for his own reasons not to race anymore this season. There is no point in me racing the nationals this season, so the V24 series this year is watching Cliff Smith drive his boat around for an hour then claim 400 points for first place. IMO there should not be a race unless there are four boats racing. It is just not worth getting the boat wet for.

5) I dont care about crowds watching, but for some reason crowd friendly courses are becomming commonplace. I think it is due to having safety cover actually. If you build a tiny course in a bay, you can have three safety boats. Laps of 4 miles means you can see everything from a central point... Not actually what I thought it was all about! Stuff the crowds IMO. Run proper OFFSHORE races, or call the race what it is: inshore circut boat racing!

6) I am trying to organise TWO races for next year. One is a race from Minehead to Barry and back. It is 30 miles accross Cardif Bay. Not 'proper' offshore, but an interesting BASIC race. I am also planning a race from the South Coast to Deauville and back! That will be a two day BASIC race. That is what interests me, not being one of two, possibly three boats curculating around a 'spectator friendly' harbour track.

7) I would love real drivers, with real competition coming back into the sport. But if there are not rules governing what you can and cant do, then the one with the biggest chequebook wins, and that probably excludes all of us here. We will not be able to compete with the money that is out there. So rules try keep the playing field level. Now those rules need to be properly and completely enforced. IIMO too much 'blind eye' is given to rule 'stretching'.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB-C
Your comments in point 2 prove my point it is not racing it is an insult to the real racers and all the past nearly 50 years have come to this, Poor Sir Max must be spinning like a top.
Marc you are als insulting the spectators and taking the piss out of the sponsors.
And going back to a previous comment 100 dosent kill for cert you can die at 5/10 it isn't speed that kills it bad driving/stupidity/ignorance and that old chesnut COMMON SENSCE.
It's like saying a dog is bad, it isn't, it's only a bad owner.
Litaigation needs to be banned, and the WHOLE rule book re-writing.
You even mention a rule which is totaly idiotic the other day.......You had to measure you painter/tow rope to the millimetre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Put someone with in positon of power, all be at an MP/MEP or ORC and the dream up wonderous rules to try and prove they are actually doing something not just enjoying a freebie..
Yet another, you can't sell cucumbers unless straight.......................dear god why do we let these people get away with it???????????
And yes you can stop/marshall the use of gps. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO



Quote:
Originally Posted by verytricky
OK, so I cant win with you. You dont explain why you disagree with my thoughts on missing a mark, and you can only say I am insulting everyone....

I will try and get things running the best I know how. I can also honestly say that I think our club has done more this year to get new boats and new drivers into the sport than anyone else. We will continue to do so and keep on at it. We will organise the two races I have previously mentioned and we will run the 'new crew' courses (one more for 2007 and two in 2008).

I think I have an idea of what should happen, and if you disagree, you need to explain how and why I have the wrong idea. Practicality has to come into it. You can not simply throw the rules, the RYA and the UIM out the window. You have to get involved and change things that are badly wrong first, and adapt or compromise on those things that you can not immediately change...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB-C
NO NO NO NO Marc you are missing the point I am talking about ofshore in general and P1 and racing around a bay and the rules put in the way of advancing and bring in more people to the sport.NOT what you are doing, please do not take things personally.
I can not and will not comment on what you are doing, but applaude you for having the dubious heart to organise races, I do not comment because I am not fully aware of what you are doing, but I do know a little about the way the sport has all but been klilled of by the likes of Dredge(spit) Lewis /Ridoout and co who ruined the sport and anyone who like Mike LLoyd and hopefully yourself stand up and get flack and grief deserves a medal.
But the rules need completely re-writing and I sincerely believe we have to go back to say 1970 and use those rules to advance the sport..
The biggest problen for me is that there are no "gentlemen " left racing who really were pioneers and had a certain class and raced for the fun of it not just for winning................The taking part
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Old 26-08-2007, 11:57 AM   #3
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Well got rid of the "old woman" sowhere do we start?
I say build on the 69/70 rule book which cobered RB and L MC and C/T/C
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Old 26-08-2007, 12:19 PM   #4
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I think our end objective may be similar. What is different is the approach we want to take to achieve the end goal. I want to get inside the 'organisation' and change the things that are drastically wrong first, then move on to the things that are just plain wrong, then move onto making changes to return the 'sport' to where I think it should be. I think you want the revolution and Puddifoot and Manchester against the wall. I would rather have then do the work to change things to where it should be.

Actually the RYA - Puddifoot specifically - are assisting in our clubs 'newbie crew' training days. They are being very helpful in assisting the organisation of the training days. These are specifically designed to grab people who already have a boat, think they would like to race, but are hit by the mountains of red tape they think they see, and are unsure. This should bring in some new racers from existing boat owners. Which is more people to race against, which is more fun!

IMO the BASIC races offer better fun than the Nationals anyway. And they can include almost every type of boat, so are more inclusive of the general boating world. I think almost every boat owner on boatmad could race in a BASIC race in 2008 without much trouble.



So where are the issues as I see them?

Well - obviously I want to change the things that have negativly affected me the most, and start off with the issues I see as being the most negative.

So first on the line is the clubs powers: One of the first things is that clubs should *not* have the power to restrict entries or create penalties against those that the club thinks should not be racing. That is why that 'ultimate sanction' should only be in the hands of the RYA and only after a full and public enquiry should sanctions be issued. The base issue here -and it is already being dealt with - is that a club can not restrict or impose penalties onto competitors for personal/club reasons - Only the National Authority can. If a club wants to restrict entries to a race or an event, then the event or race becomes an 'Invitational' event, and no National points can be awarded.



Next move onto fair play. We do need to resolve issues regarding the way boats are checked to ensure they comply with the rules. Proper technical scrutineers need to be trained and be impartial and have the word on the eligibility of a boat for the class. This is simply not happening. Five years into V24 and the current technical scrutineers dont know the class rules!



Then on to the race courses themselves: Either change the name or change the course. Offshore racing or circut boat racing? Which is it?



Then onto the protests and 'games' played in the pits. At Cowes, Cliff Smith, with BOTH RYA scrutineers, some press and a few hangers on loudly proclaimed to everyone that I was a F*&cking cheat and I had a fully modified engine. He continued to tell everyone around that this was the case. But no protest on my engine - not since it was stripped and sealed by the RYA technical scrutineer anyway. IMO that behaviour needs punishment, and the scrutineers who were standing by with Cliff Smith needed to stop him or distance themselves from him - they did neither. They continued to laugh with him, then come over to scrutineer my boat! I do not think Rob Beakhurst is professional or he would have reacted differently! I think that some action needs to take place about that sort of behaviour of the RYA officials. Protests need to be official, in writing and paid for. Then shut the duck up and leave it to be resolved by competant unbiased officials. £50 is not a suitable fee for a protest. It should be iro £1000 so that frivioulous claims are not made. Once a protest is made the case must not continue outside of the race office. Especially in full view of public, VIP and press, with RYA officials hanging on and enjoying the 'action'.



The winning boat at each event needs to be fully and completely checked. Everything from props to gearbox, drives, engine, fuel etc. and if required an engine strip as well. It should not be tolerated that people cheat. It must be clear that if you cheat, you will get caught and you will loose all points. If it is obvious that the racing is fair andf to the rules, it should attract more people. Secret handshakes and 'team holidays' with officials do exist and do result in people leaving the sport! Rules need to be enforced properly and correctly!



Here is a very hot one - Medically fit to race? I 'hear' stories of people signing their own medical each year. I 'hear' stories of people who are unfit to race actually racing against medical advice. I 'hear' stories of brethaliser tests which pass people who are very drunk, and decide not to race because of their state, but 'passed' the test anyway. So how about mandatory testing for every driver at every event? How about a zero tolerance of blood alchohol and not the 0.08 'pass'. And a true random drug test at each event? How about a reaction test like they have in Dubai before each race? Simple and easy to implement..





So - those would be my first steps. What is your opinion on that? Whould you approach things differently, or do you think that something else takes presidence?
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Old 26-08-2007, 12:31 PM   #5
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Hate time lag...

I do not have a copy of any rule book older than 2005.......
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Old 26-08-2007, 01:17 PM   #6
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Ok firstly, and I'll com to the other a bit later.
You have to decide if this going to be a sport for all OR proffesional racing.
I honestly do not think as long as the UIM and the RYA are the governing bodies this can not/should not and never will be professional.
Until you can find a mega sponsor, and then 20/30 orbital sponsors this will not come to be.
Although I believe that the HONDA series is a great way of bringing the sport to the public and media alike, I think the way it is "allowed" to run is nothing short of disgracefull and actually brings the sport into disrapute.
It is incredibly exciting, however I do believe unless someone steps in fast, possibly Steve (although not ideal) we are gointg to see a major catastrophy.
I still have not been able to get any one to tell me if trim tabs are allowed and if not they must be brought in immediately atleast for the 225's. Those boats are an accident waiting to happen, and in the 150(?) just blatant bad driving.
Reminds me of my cart racing days in the '60's!!!!!!!!
I digress,sorry.
I just don't think you are going is the way forward for the sport as a whole.
For V24 I think you can do it as it is so similar to a one class formula.
However, can you get both the boat and engine manufacturers to back you.??
They not only are amazing to watch but a fabulous drive. I was lucky enough to test and ride in the very first that came over...
Cost of the rig is very high and no factory back up.
If you can get that and ALL boats and engines are the same you will probably make it work.
This then makes it a driver ability, navigation and prop choise as to who comes out on top.
All of us have to remember it is sport and to do that you have to take MONEY out of the equasion(?)
You will a straight team behind you and a clear division between competitors and organisers.
Which are you a racer or organiser?? you won't make it work doing both!!
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Old 26-08-2007, 01:30 PM   #7
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Yip - organiser and racer does not work.

So if I want it to work I have to give up racing, or find someone who feels the same way about it as I do who will run it for us. But if they are not racing in it will they care about it unless there is money in it??

Damn!

I can see a way around some of the issues short term, but it would definately require me to stop racing if I were to try organise the series to be a fair and proper series.
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Old 26-08-2007, 01:35 PM   #8
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NOw to your points.
To change what is wrong/corrupt or just idiotic you have to start from a blank page.

I am not surprised "puddifoot" is helping it is part of his job and if he dosen't he will be out. Only you can decide how and if you can trust him. Again there is the conflict of interest which is a competitor running a sport. The one good point s or at least should be that he is a racer and should know what he is talking about. But he is also going to be hindered by the tec and other groups who are either to far out of touch or never been racers as to at time ties his hands.

As for the clubs you have no chance, as long as they pay the RYA and not the other way around. You can only make it proffesional IF ALL the clubs are proffesionally run and the sport isn't big enough.

Basic races are the best because it is fun and anyone can have a go, if it floats it works..

As for your issues, as I said at the time you made the error of not going with boat to Guernsey and racing under protest...They had to let you run then a public enquiry or at the very least a transparent hearing could/ would have been heard.

Fair Play.!!!!!!!!!!!! Again, how can it be fair when the organisers are best friends/holiday companions/drinking buddies?? I do believe Rob is a straight guy, if a bit to laid back but I also believe and I am probably totaly wrong that when he and Annie ran ORDA it was the best and most straight racing going. But they moved over and that was one of the greatest moments in recent racing times. Annie took no truck from anyone and was very fair. Now??

Courses?/ I'm very biased............Offshore, If we are talking "V 24" both they are great in both. Saturday a big long race (assuming you get enough boats) and sunday thrill the public in the bay.
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Old 26-08-2007, 02:25 PM   #9
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Protests...........
I agree a fixed sum of as you say £1000 sounds ideal..
I know and happen to like Cliff, however I know he is a loveable rougue!!! But he is also the back bone of racing and has been for many years.
As for the comments its a bit like gamesman ship the bitching/winding up and you like me are inclinded to say what we think and believe and then make sure everyone knows. Unfortunately, we have a proffesional attitude to the sport, although I don ot believe in protest because even if you win you never win!!! just become the butt of the joke.

Scruitineering afetr the event is a big problem and to make it work you have to start with full security for each boat provided by the event organisers, otherwise you can get another competitor slipping something into the fuel etc.Personnally I would like factory engines sealed at the begging of the season and if they have to be worked then an independant person oversees without knowing who's engines it is or the manufactureers provide 2/3 engines per boat which all go into a truck and when needed given out.

Medicals, should be done by one body only, and sent to the governing body, driver neither touching or seeing.
I remember some top racers in the '60/70's being carried to there boats!!!!!!!!!!!! wouldn't get in a boat unless cut...........but amazingly drove very well!!!!!!! But I do think zero tolerance for alchol and drugs..
I can honestly say I never came accross an italian drunk or taking alcahol in class 1 however many in the 80's could be found having a few lines before the off...
But it is a hot one, can you honestly say that someone who is say disabled can't race? You have to be very careful indeed. I raced in 89/90 while having chemo for colon cancer and my boss insisted I race providing it wasn't rough, I can say hand on heart I do not think I would have come thru it without being able to race it gave me something to fight for and to take away the pain and to be honest wanting thru the chemo to give up and die to get away from the pain etc.. So one has to be carefull.

I agree every driver should be tested before and after a race, as for the reaction tests we used to have them in the states before each race and in class 1 however there are some who have a problem passing.............I know when my turn came Matt Houghton and his crew used to get coffee and sit down and say to me "take your time we need a break" It could take me half an hour to catch the pole or stand on one leg!!! and the longer it took the more difficult and funny it became.. Dislexic people have difficulty doing these tests, do you ban them??? sure many wish I was!!!

Do you really want to give up? you get absolutely no thanks for being an organiser and it is a thankless task because 90% of your team will blame you for everything/stab yuou in the back and deny everything.............I know been there done that...and it really won't be worth it till you have at least 15 boats

Firts stop the dishonesty and I do not mean drivers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 26-08-2007, 10:17 PM   #10
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Not going to get involved directly between the two of you, but:-

I was really hoping to get to Cowes after a long absence this year - I will always love the atmosphere, the Marina, the noise, the whole thing. But having read what occurred it is disheartening to say the least that things have come to this. Can you imagine a round of the British Touring Car Championship involving a race where the leading cars slow down on the last lap whilst the pit crew calculate their average speed and tell the driver he's gone too fast??!!!!

I am a complete pleb when it comes to knowing about the rules and regulations these days - as I am sure are most of the spectators, but what is the sport coming to when this sort of thing occurs??

I thought it was a race.

Maybe I am missing the point - but don't call it a race if it isn't.
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Old 26-08-2007, 11:43 PM   #11
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From the other side of the world, from what I understand to get around safety issues they have to have an average speed, this allows it to come under UIM Pleasure Navigation Rules and NOT Offshore Rules.
So to answer your question, it is probably not an out and out race.
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Old 27-08-2007, 01:44 AM   #12
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Damn you two - This was supposed to be the RANT thread and the original thread the dissing the P1's!!!!

Sheeesh...
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Old 27-08-2007, 07:13 PM   #13
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OK, I'll dare to say something on this subject... in regards to the gps/compass thing - surely if the marks are in the right place (which at times they weren't this weekend - i was on a safety boat and they kept having to move them back) then surely it makes 0 difference whether the drivers are using gps or compass - if you miss it then it's the DRIVER/NAVS problem as the mark was in the right place. Oh and marc i have the pic of you and v2 next to each other - will put it up later.
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Old 27-08-2007, 10:58 PM   #14
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on the protest front, i seem to remember when i used to race sail boats, if you wanted to protest then you had to raise your protest flag within the same lap of the incident, (tou also had to shout protest to the boat you were protesting but i can see how this would be a problem in powerboats) but maybe a red light on the boat in a similar veign to the flag combined with the higher fee would help prevent all of the post race protests, time wasting and holding up the p[odiums. on a circuit this could well work as the race contoll can log the light on the lap they pass through the line and mark down that the light is on.
just an idea
interested to know your opinions.
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Old 27-08-2007, 11:16 PM   #15
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I also think that p1 is beggining to get the idea about the courses, i.e. friday when they finaly agreed to run around the island, the 6 laps in the solent prior gave the spectators someting to watch and off they went. then shortly after the basic boats came out, mustered and started followed by thundercats so spectators werent left with nothing to watch for long, maybe this could be used in the future with a cowes torquay cowes, with a few short laps then off followed by maybee a honda race round a course? it seems to be that organisers realy need to keep the spectators happy these days to keep sponsors happy but you also need to keep the drivers happy and i think that they realy woould prefer to run the long offshore corses given the chance. it would also be good to keep the short courses cause its two different skills, out in the sea and round the cans.
again just some thoughts interested in your oppinions.
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Old 28-08-2007, 12:02 AM   #16
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Podiums should IMO be as the boats finished, as soon as possible after the finish and *no* discussion of protests etc. Champain & laurels for the first 3 accross the line.

Then listen to protests, then check with marshall boats, gps's etc etc and a week later publish teh results.
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