Fro sale Phantom 23

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by larby

Ahhh yes, now I remember that old thread about raffshore and their website!!

Yeah, the 28 is a copy too. I really loathe people like them and wish people didn't support them by buying their boats.
Trouble is, people don't think of it that way, they just see a nice boat and buy it. They don't care what they're doing to the market.

James

This 23 has no connection at all with a SB design. I don't know it's parentage, but it doesn't come from Sittingbourne. The tooling comes from Raffshore, maybe it's Raff's own design, dunno.

I think the current builder (Jan Korteland?) just thought the Phantom name might give it a helping hand, as he was already selling a copy of the P21 (calling it a Phantom) and makes it a happy Phantom family?

So this boat is NOT a splash of a Steve Baker design. (though their 21 is)

[larby]

Well that's interesting then! Credit where credit's due if he did design that one himself. Any idea if the 28's a splash?

James

[larby]

Originally Posted by dowdy

James,can understand your passionate response after the gigantic efforts you have put in on the last two projects you have done,now put yourself in my shoes ,i have a p25,ex AGFA BLUEBIRD,its had a hard life,been messed about with by previous owners and needs money throwing at it to mint it up, i have a laminator here who can take a mould of it and give me a brand new boat,mint,solid,have tried to find the purchaser of the original p25 mould to no avail,i have already talked to various people regarding the legal aspects of it and been advised accordingly,now do we let the p25 rot away,repair it,thats all it would be,a repair or give myself a brand spanker for less than the cost of a repaint/refurb? I like phantoms,always have,surely i would be preserving Steve Bakers heritage for future generations or do we just let it die?

That's a totally different kettle of fish to me. My issue here is with people who are making a living from stealing other's designs and therefore able to produce boats without the set up costs. That will ultimately result in it no longer being viable to design and build a boat from scratch as you'll be priced out of the market and that in turn will ensure that the development of powerboat hulls will grind to a halt as they'll all just be variations of 30yr old designs.
You're simply making yourself a boat and I've no doubt at all that when you come to sell it you'd be decent enough to not try passing it off as an original. Hell, I'd probably have been better off doing that with mine if I'd known how!
At the end of the day, look at Jon and swipes. That was all done what I would call the 'correct' way, morally at least, and it's not really affecting anyone. I'm sure yours would be done in much the same way.

What I really can't understand though, is why the hell someone has bought the moulds for the 23, 25 and 28, but won't flippin build them!! I'd love to get my hands on a 28, i think they're gorgeous boats!

James

[Big Dutch]

I suppose poor old J.R is in a similar position with his broken P21.
Has he resolved it yet Larby we want him at the next race
Young Hugh also has a couple of Transom bashed Phantoms

[larby]

I believe Jon is still looking at the moment, but ultimately plans to get his Phantom fixed, it's not that bad at all, just needs to be done properly!

I think most of Hugh's collection would need far more work than Jon's, as it happens i think I'm taking on his P18 as a bit of a project for when the revenger's done (some day!!) I like it cos it's an ultra light one

James

[Big Dutch]

The 18 eh ?
I forgot about that one- I believe its had a proper wash and dry though Larby

[jordaniel]

This subject gets everyone wound up,its wrong to copy someones design
and profit from it we all know that but it is also such a shame that the p28 boat is no longer made...yes there are a few around but most of them have been raced and raced hard so what i hear you say they are made for it and again i agree with that too but i thought i would be able to ride my CRF 450 forever until i came off it and realised my body takes twice as long to repair itself,my point is that these boats will all be showing their age and like Den says the cost of the repair compared with the cost of a new build could be the same so i would be tempted to buy a dog of a p28,take a mould off it and have me a nice new phantom p28 but my concience wont let me so until we find the moulds and have someone make new ones legally i will just have to dream
Ray

[Jon Fuller]

it just doesn't happen that way though.

If you take a mould from an existing boat, you won't just produce one, you'll make loads (coz people will want em), or, you'll make one, then sell the mould on (it's a big thing to store and after all, would have a large investment & value) and whoever bought it would produce em.

Dowdy talks as if he'd be doing it purely to replace his own boat....righto, only one out the mould eh, then destroy it?...na, thought not.

Also, to think building a large-ish boat like a P28 (properly) is a cheap project, at least compared to repairing an existing hull is delusional!

You might knock up a resin heavy chop-strand thing cheaply, but to do one nicely with good materials & core construction (ideal with the large panel areas) is costly. Materials alone in our 32 were £15k+, and the same again for labour and that's a bare hull & deck......plus all the costs of taking the mould from the original, and that aint as cheap as you might think, neither in time, or money. (unless you want the awful wonky item, usually associated with copies)

[jordaniel]

Spot on John i would pay that for a new one if the guy building it was as passionate as S.B was when he made them at least i know it would see me out. It's just a shame that you can no longer buy a new one, im sure they would sell, maybe i am phantom mad.. after all i have only ever had three boats and they have all been phantoms, im sure the others are as good but i do love my phantom boats

Ray

[jordaniel]

Originally Posted by larby

That's a totally different kettle of fish to me. My issue here is with people who are making a living from stealing other's designs and therefore able to produce boats without the set up costs. That will ultimately result in it no longer being viable to design and build a boat from scratch as you'll be priced out of the market and that in turn will ensure that the development of powerboat hulls will grind to a halt as they'll all just be variations of 30yr old designs.
You're simply making yourself a boat and I've no doubt at all that when you come to sell it you'd be decent enough to not try passing it off as an original. Hell, I'd probably have been better off doing that with mine if I'd known how!
At the end of the day, look at Jon and swipes. That was all done what I would call the 'correct' way, morally at least, and it's not really affecting anyone. I'm sure yours would be done in much the same way.

What I really can't understand though, is why the hell someone has bought the moulds for the 23, 25 and 28, but won't flippin build them!! I'd love to get my hands on a 28, i think they're gorgeous boats!

James

Never a true a word spoken Larby...If the muppet who had the moulds would build them to the same spec and quality as SB did they would sell or why would so many people keep posting threads about the p28...awesome boat!!

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by larby

What I really can't understand though, is why the hell someone has bought the moulds for the 23, 25 and 28, but won't flippin build them!!

James

The 23 moulds are in the UK, belonging to Trio Mouldings.

25 & 28 went overseas, don't know any more.

My 28 with a nice pair of 400hp alloy small blocks is what you want (my diesels are too heavy).
Full balsa layup, the last 28 Steve made (of 14 sport decks) and very nearly the last boat he ever made.

Steve Mac has first refusal, but he seems to have his hands full of P25.

CHAOS pic..

[larby]

Yep, that'd be very nice! Let me know if you ever want to all-but give it away!!

RE the moulds, it baffles me why people bought them in the first place if they didn't intend to make them!

James

[driver510]

i want a phantom 28 as my next boat in a few years

[dowdy]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

The 23 moulds are in the UK, belonging to Trio Mouldings.

25 & 28 went overseas, don't know any more.

My 28 with a nice pair of 400hp alloy small blocks is what you want (my diesels are too heavy).
Full balsa layup, the last 28 Steve made and very nearly the last boat he ever made.

Steve Mac has first refusal, but he seems to have his hands full of P25.

CHAOS pic..

The 28 is supposedly in Cork according to a post couple of weeks ago,the 25 was last seen in Portugal several years ago,probably dossed under a load of undergrowth by now,i was looking at some moulds at Drivers the other day looked like they had been there a while,asked the lads where they for sale,Nope he said,yet the owner will be paying storage week in week out for dumping them there and not using them,does not make any sense to me.If anyone is looking to store any moulds or boats long term P.M. me special rates for boatmadders,plenty of secure space up here.

[dowdy]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

The 23 moulds are in the UK, belonging to Trio Mouldings.

25 & 28 went overseas, don't know any more.

My 28 with a nice pair of 400hp alloy small blocks is what you want (my diesels are too heavy).
Full balsa layup, the last 28 Steve made and very nearly the last boat he ever made.

Steve Mac has first refusal, but he seems to have his hands full of P25.

CHAOS pic..

How much?

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by dowdy

How much?

For what you want, you need a scrappy old cheap doner, mine certainly wouldn't be cheap.
The Irish moulds need to be identified, are there any pics of a finished boat from them? That would identify if they're legit.

If I found someone with the funds, who wanted to race, and KEEP it, I'd like to build a 32 with a revised deck. Those folk are pretty rare though.

[dowdy]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

For what you want, you need a scrappy old doner, mine wouldn't be cheap.
The Irish moulds need to be identified, are there any pics of a finished boat from them? That would identify if they're legit.

If I found someone with the funds, who wanted to race, and KEEP it, I'd like to build a 32 with a revised deck. Those folk are pretty rare though.

Dont want a doner kebab or a donor,want one done and ready to go,about to order a new ranger25 from Mr.Ring if your 28 is affordable i might change my mind,mike is busy anyway.How much is "not cheap"?

[Jon Fuller]

Na, stick with the Ranger, they're a good boat.

I wouldn't dream of de-railing an ongoing deal with Mike and anyway, like I said, Steve Mcgregor has first dibs.

[Sake]

Hi Dowdy,

What is the price in the uk for a new ring 25 can you tel me that??


Thanks Sake

Originally Posted by dowdy

Dont want a doner kebab or a donor,want one done and ready to go,about to order a new ranger25 from Mr.Ring if your 28 is affordable i might change my mind,mike is busy anyway.How much is "not cheap"?

[dowdy]

Originally Posted by Sake

Hi Dowdy,

What is the price in the uk for a new ring 25 can you tel me that??


Thanks Sake

Cant tell you that,top secret,ask Mike tho he will look after you.