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Old 23-06-2010, 09:59 AM   #21
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Historic Speeds

In response to Old Man's comment


I will probably be shown to be wrong but I would suspect this is a rule promoted and brought in by COPOC and not thought through clearly.
ML.

This was nothing to do with COPOC whoever set the rules back in 2008 or whenever is responsible for any problems now being met by this class!

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Old 23-06-2010, 10:54 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMan View Post
I know for certain that in the Class Classification rules that came out of the RYA/UIM last November a speed limit of 50 knots appeared from nowhere.
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The 50mph rule was originally suggested by Buzzi during our meeting with him in Como. So it didn't 'come from nowhere', it was there from the beginning of Marathon. This was because he saw open Classic/Historic rules as an open invitation for someone like him to exploit the rules as he had done in RB08 and Cowes (albeit, rules written with the best intentions), and effectively make it possible for a boat conforming to historic (for example, CESA 1882 would fit the age rule) to dominate the new, full-on race classes, this would not be acceptable.
The speed limit rule is far from perfect, but its a tough nut to crack. Anything capable of winning overall, or any of the upper classes would most likely have modern replacement power, and should, in my, and others opinion, run in the pure race classes if it's no longer 'as was', and looking for high place honours.

COPOC, in the form of John Iddon had the speed thing removed. He/they also worked with JP on the capacity rules (without TWG agreement) where we now have BOTH the +10% rule AND a max capacity rule!, which I simply cannot get my head around. Ho Hum. The Historic rules are, using one of Barrie's phrases, a mad womans breakfast.

As I said, speed limiting is not perfect, but something is needed to keep a lid on the performance of the boats racing in Historic. I'm astonished this seems to be so hard for many to understand.

I will repeat that Classic boats were seen as an 'add on', or invitational class, for those interested in the classics to be able to take part, not to have them as top of the bill. Marathon is about the main (new) classes E to A, not Classic/Historic! I'm sorry if it offends, but a handfull of old boats a series doesn't make! They're guests to the main event. (tin hat now on)

As for the 'Problems now being met by this class' comment, I don't see any. In RB08, Cowes '08, and Cowes '09, how many genuine historic boats broke, or even got close to the speed limit? QED (and that includes some with much more power than originally fitted in their day)

For the record, I would rather see engine rules, or weight, or both, used to control historic performance, rather than a speed limit, then everyone could race to the line giving it everything if they wish. However, that would start a whole new set of arguments going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THUNDERBOLT View Post
This was nothing to do with COPOC whoever set the rules back in 2008 or whenever is responsible for any problems now being met by this class!

Mike
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:59 AM   #23
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So the speed limit was there originally, but it is COPOC that have had it removed - FWIW I agree with Jon - leave the speed limit in and if people want to go faster then join one of the "Main Classes" and race with everyone else!
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Old 23-06-2010, 12:28 PM   #24
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No worries Jon, my tuppence is not too valid as we are only there for the fun. I think that the question of what is trying to be achieved should be what shapes the rules. If the idea is to stop super high performance classics then the obvious answer is a speed limit.
In many ways I go along with Jon's philosophy of sticking to one un-changing set of rules rather than messing about each year then at least we all know where we stand.
Look forward to seeing everyone at Cowes
All the best
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Old 23-06-2010, 03:37 PM   #25
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speed

Final response

The Classic Rules were agreed by the SAT committee and J.Puddifoot. Included in 2010 RYA PB1 rules, and accepted by the UIM. see page 364 of the 2010 UIM Rule Book. Lengths and hp as near as possible to the original rules. The 10% increase in hp was agreed to allow more modern motors to be fitted. And, of course, boats must be over 25 years old. Whilst the number prefix is H, this is coincidental, they are NOT Historic boats, they are CLASSIC BOATS.
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Old 23-06-2010, 03:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THUNDERBOLT View Post
Final response

The Classic Rules were agreed by the SAT committee and J.Puddifoot.
Is that a fact?

As it happens, many of the changes that took place with the rules were not agreed by SAT, SAT were by that time only asked to look & comment, but not to offer opinions on content!! And...JP is the PB division manager, that position has never before included giving input on technical matters, let alone writing the rules single handedly, and implementing into PB1.

The current system is completely broken. One man cannot run/control the sport, as the current, ludicrous rules show.
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Old 23-06-2010, 08:08 PM   #27
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Historic Rules

Fancy Buzzi being concerned he would wreck the Historic Class.

Snag is, that one class can be subject to all the wranglings of Class A to G ,put together.

You leave it open or you don`t have it at all,and anybody with an historic craft can go for the A to G class prize with an Historic prize thrown in,the cost of this extra prize need not be silly money,just recognition thing.

With the exception of the ribs,which wouldn`t be historic anyway,a good 50% of the hardboats are fairly historic anyway, yet don`t enter historic class,so there you have boats that have an option on which class they enter,so why have it?

I would think if Miss Daisy or Gee entered the conventional classes,knowing that there would be some sort of recognition for an historic boat,that would be acceptable,and if they won their class,that would be even more satisfying.

If Dry Martini had to decide what class to enter,would they get more satisfaction from beating Blast Off or Miss Daisy (with all due respect to Miss Daisy),so if you not careful one has created a class with even fewer boats than has been envisaged.

Good job there isn`t a `H` non historic class,otherwise the next one would be`I` for the tack on Historics.Gee would look a treat with I185 on her.
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Old 23-06-2010, 08:12 PM   #28
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I've gotten quite good at sitting on my hands, they just sneaked out momentarily!
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Old 23-06-2010, 08:26 PM   #29
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I've gotten quite good at sitting on my hands, they just sneaked out momentarily!
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Old 24-06-2010, 08:02 AM   #30
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The 50mph rule was originally suggested by Buzzi during our meeting with him in Como. So it didn't 'come from nowhere', it was there from the beginning of Marathon. This was because he saw open classic/historic rules as an open invitation for someone like him to exploit the rules as he had done in RB08 and Cowes (albeit, rules written with the best intentions), and effectively make it possible for a boat conforming to historic (for example, CESA 1882 would fit the age rule) to dominate the new, full on race classes, this would not be acceptable. The speed limit rule is far from perfect, but its a tough nut to crack. Anything capable of winning overall, or any of the upper classes would most likely have modern replacement power, and should, in my, and others opinion, run in the pure race classes if it's no longer as was, and looking for high place honours. - Quote from John Fuller.

You are right of course Jon, I had forgotten that discussion. I think I will in future do a Chaos and sit on my hands!

Those who are about to type "Thank God for that" don't bother!

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Old 24-06-2010, 08:24 AM   #31
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'Doing a Chaos' requires far more than just sitting on ones hands! I don't think you'd wanna go there.
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Old 24-06-2010, 02:11 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Fancy Buzzi being concerned he would wreck the Historic Class.
I think it was more a case of him seeing that another character of his tenacity & where-with-all might just see the wide open door and strole though it.
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Old 24-06-2010, 02:59 PM   #33
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I think it was more a case of him seeing that another character of his tenacity & where-with-all might just see the wide open door and strole though it.
Just when you think it couldn`t get any worse,there could be a Historic Class full of Buzzi clones.More tablets,nurse!!!
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Old 24-06-2010, 03:07 PM   #34
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Just when you think it couldn`t get any worse, there could be a Historic Class full of Buzzi clones. More tablets,nurse!!!
And COPOC + the RYA have loaded the gun.
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Old 24-06-2010, 07:07 PM   #35
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i thought i was alone with all this crap, i wonder what they would do if we ALL said we're not racing, i'd wet myself to see it
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Old 24-06-2010, 07:46 PM   #36
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Quote:
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i thought i was alone with all this crap, i wonder what they would do if we ALL said we're not racing, i'd wet myself to see it
THE RYA WOULD LOVE THAT !!!!
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Old 25-06-2010, 08:13 AM   #37
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THE RYA WOULD LOVE THAT !!!!
what's that no racing or me wetting myself
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