CUV/PICCHIOTTI`s

FLYING FISH · 11-01-2009, 03:16 PM

I thought I better start another thread from that on the Dry Martini one,if the CUV`s get out of hand.
Firstly the Sunseeker XPS 34 is Buzzi not Shead design.Touchy subject.
As can be seen from the Dry Martini thread `Black Tornado` knows his stuff and we reguarly correspond to trade info to build up the offshore history.Being in Italy he knows in good detail the history of the boats that raced there.
So,if we start with Miss Enfield 1 (not the best of boats,as Leonardo de Costa de Saigo was involved in the construction.He went on to Crusader boats having played the designer at Sheads.Not the thing to do.)Things got better when the Vosper boys got involved with Miss Enfield II,the lines of which was stretched for `Enfield Avenger`and in turn streched again for the Picchiotti 39 (the two Alitalia boats) These in turn would have added length for the CUV 41.Can`t remember how the beam changed in all this.The definition of length is always debatable,depending how you read the drawings.
Picchiotti Shipyards in Viareggio commissioned the 2 Alitalia boats and CUV shipyards came along and took over the design and called them CUV 38.
There always seems to be confusion in the politics of Picchiotti and CUV.Maybe `Black Tornado` has inside knowledge.
There was another Picchiotti design boat and that was `Martini Racing` which ended up as `Cafferel`
Della Valle had one of the old Alitalia boats,the others were CUV.
Shead has always favoured alloy over GRP as you know where you are with it, when squeezing the last drop of weight out.It was only when ABO was made to a fairly basic layup and not cored material,progress was made.You can be too clever sometimes working on the minimum stress requirements.
Between `Black Tornado` and myself we have researched quite a bit on all the CUV monos and cats,so to list them here would be fairly time consuming,but it can be interesting checking out where each boat ended up.
The Niccolai boat was Dry Martini 2 ex-Alitalia Due.De Valle then had it as Ego and then `Rothmans Ego`.

BluFin · 11-01-2009, 03:56 PM

IMHO two of the most lovley Alloy cabin boats - they could have performed better but I loved em anyway

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1973_.jpg.html

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1971_.jpg.html

You could see Avenger Too in them along with the DS110 Cruiser

motorvator · 11-01-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

Firstly the Sunseeker XPS 34 is Buzzi not Shead design.Touchy subject.

What's touchy about it? Do you reckon Fabio was looking over Dons shoulder when he done it or did he just splash a Revenger

In fairness to you, you are obviously confusing the XPS34 with the XS2000 15 years later.

Black_Tornado · 11-01-2009, 04:24 PM

Sorry flying fish but I was writing my intervention on the other proper thread while you created one of them special!

Ok for the next ones on the CUVs etc. here!

Black_Tornado · 11-01-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motorvator

What's touchy about it? Do you reckon Fabio was looking over Dons shoulder when he done it or did he just splash a Revenger

In fairness to you, you are obviously confusing the XPS34 with the XS2000 15 years later.

Buzzi has not always been so original.
For instance some mono of class 2 as the Black Iveco looked a lot at certain hulls made in USA.
To don't speak of the boats of the failured of the Super Hawaii of the firsts editions of the endurance era Venice-Montecarlo.
Ooops we are out of thread again!

cfun · 11-01-2009, 05:16 PM

As little Nige says this is a can of worms ...

No wonder I never did quite get all the tie up's with CUV and the yards it was allot more complex than I first thought, however I was not aware FF worked with Don Shed and therefore could tell the story from the inside and of course with Black Tornado being Italian there is a huge wealth of knowledge available

Does Cantieri Uniti Viareggio still build boats this link does not work in Yacht yard's directory http://www.klehn.de/Yachtwerften.htm
but under Super yacht times there are many Italian ship yards starting with the name Cantieri http://www.superyachttimes.com/shipy...search_country[]=97&search_services[]=new_building
having looked over before and posted links before to some of the amazing yachts built in these yards, the Italians passion for the sea is very evident and understandable given the climate and going by the Boatmad pics posted by JF on the Buzzi trip some stunning cruising area's as well
back in the late 80's there was another shipyard on Italian race boats called Ferrari in the link it ties it with the name Cantieri

As FF says maybe the 38 and 41 CUV are identical beam boats as they are built in allu I would assume stretching it would be far easier than a glass boat with moulds and without running a measure over them the size differences may be debatable although I have to say the Annabella/Follett boat looked biger than the early Della Valle boats

gazza · 11-01-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluFin

IMHO two of the most lovley Alloy cabin boats - they could have performed better but I loved em anyway

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1973_.jpg.html

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1971_.jpg.html

You could see Avenger Too in them along with the DS110 Cruiser

Was Ford Persuader (350) not Scott and Adams dads boat,

gaZ

blind dog · 11-01-2009, 06:03 PM

spot on gazza,i know ford p is old fashioned today but i still like it but maybe thats just because it was my fathers

Adam · 11-01-2009, 06:11 PM

A really impressive boat in the rough - but not that quick in the calm at first thought.

However when you consider the weight of it - lots of savings could have been made on fit-out. Also all welded topsides / deck - so I guess thickness must have been way up. Then only running 250 Sabres - up-rated to a supposed 300 each - and running on shafts the performance does not look too bad.

A real character of a boat with a fair degree of success - with a second overall in the roughest CTC.

Still out there somewhere, saw it I guess 5 or 6 years ago.

FLYING FISH · 11-01-2009, 06:40 PM

Lets forget the model numbers for a moment,what I was driving at was that if ,what I call the D-Reg racer,the one setting the endurance records was referred to as Shead boat,as it was a Buzzi design,it was the first time Sunseekers had departed from a Shead design since they began as Poole Powerboats.
Not sure what you mean `could have performed better` Blu Fin.Ford Persuader when as Unohoo came 2nd OA and 1st in class in just about the roughest CTC there has ever been.Miss Dunhill went on to have a 9 year race career.Like all boats, a lot of it is who is driving and what sort preparation .
Back to the CUV craft.Della Valle had the following

Picchiotti 38 - Rothmans Ego ex-Alitalia Due
CUV 38 - Rothmans Ego (went on to become RB08 Cinzano)
CUV 38 - Ego Lamborghini (went on to be GB Pedrini,Venice - Monte winner)
CUV 41 - Pinot di Pinot (went on to become Gruppo dalle Carbonaire)

and then his wife put a stop to him racing the circuits,so he went endurance racing.

Have not followed CUV other than their raceboats,but their career runs from 1968,and their roots go back to 1860.Their 25yr anniversary booklet talks about the Alitalia boats being CUV 38,which is cobblers,and I have seen articles saying how CUV have made the Alitalia`s a better design,etc.
Don`t you just love the Anglo Saxon/Italian rivalry.Scheinder Trophy all over again.

So far I have recorderd 9 CUV 38 and 6 CUV 41,but the listing is still not 100% complete and `Black Tornado` and I quite often have an International conflab on what we think is correct or not.

As I`ve mentioned before this sort of thread should be in a separate `Classic Section` as per `Offshore Only`,as it tends to clog up the banter sections.Any comments Jon or Matt.

SplitPin · 11-01-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluFin

IMHO two of the most lovley Alloy cabin boats - they could have performed better but I loved em anyway

http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1971_.jpg.html

You could see Avenger Too in them along with the DS110 Cruiser

Is this the one (Miss Dunhill) that became Robert Bruce as owned by Mike Doxford's brother Bob?

Adam · 11-01-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

So far I have recorderd 9 CUV 38 and 6 CUV 41,but the listing is still not 100% complete and `Black Tornado` and I quite often have an International conflab on what we think is correct or not.

As I`ve mentioned before this sort of thread should be in a separate `Classic Section` as per `Offshore Only`,as it tends to clog up the banter sections.Any comments Jon or Matt.

How many others (similar) - built elsewhere? Legend and the boat built at Souters for Spain?

As to a separate classic section - sounds really good.

BluFin · 11-01-2009, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SplitPin

Is this the one (Miss Dunhill) that became Robert Bruce as owned by Mike Doxford's brother Bob?

think so

FLYING FISH · 12-01-2009, 10:28 AM

Raking out some salvaged drgs from the attic,here is some tin trivia for `Cfun` and Adam`.

ME I,ME II,Miss Dunhill,Avenger 007,Unowot,Alitalia were all 8ft beam with rise of keel 15ft aft of stem.
From stem to aft end of topside styling was

ME II - 32.5` Dunhill - 33.25` A007 - 33` Unowot - 37` Alitalia - 38.5`

From stem to transom @ keel

ME II - 32` Dunhill - 32.5` A007 - 32.25` Unowot - 36.5` Alitalia - 37.3`

So we called Alitalia 39`,Picchiotti called it 38`.

Decks ME II /Alitalia/Unowot- 2mm Swaged Dunhill/A007 - 3mm welded (side-5mm)

Now I know as previously reported a young Scott had nothing better to do but get his feeler gauge out on the topside of Ford Persuader ,as thats just about all he could see at that age whilst whizzing along,but it makes you wonder how much 1mm in plate thickness really affects performance.
If you take HTS,it virtually doubled it`s H.P. when it was Apache,and with outdrives as opposed to HTS shaft drive originally, with the speed going up and the hull remaining as built,how do you pinpoint small wt increase effects or justify the original scantlings.Despite all the theory it`s still a grey art in some areas.Du Cane used to say topside pressure is half bottom pressure,but look at a CUV and the theory falls apart.

cfun · 12-01-2009, 01:13 PM

Debenhams was a DS designed boat wasn't it? and at 46' it must of been the largest race boat designed by him and maybe the last race boat to come off his drawing board as well
would it of been possible to have a tin bottom and a glass superstructure whereby the problem of de-lamination is solved but a nice styled deck can be added, or is this kind of thinking not possible due to the different materials

Not quite sure what this means?

"Despite all the theory it`s still a grey art in some areas.Du Cane used to say topside pressure is half bottom pressure,but look at a CUV and the theory falls apart".

FLYING FISH · 12-01-2009, 03:50 PM

Sounds good,a alloy bottom and GRP upperworks,but the reality well.

We a had GRP Buzzi hull turn up with a real bugger of an upperworks lines as formulated by Porsche.Buzzi must have had a hangover that day,because the GRP hull was pretty ropey in construction,even the cockpit/E.R. bhd had bloody great holes in it for viewing the engines.Incredible.I think the Austrian who built it ,never had Buzzi pay him a visit to see how bad it was.Anyway shead design was asked to make it right,so after scrapping it,because of the complicated deck lines (like one of those WW I torpedo boats with a large hump deck cross section changing throughout the length) it was decided to split the alloy/grp constr at the topside knuckle line.After getting as far building the alloy hull and wood plug,Porsche sent over a Belgian expert in plastic engine blocks for racing cars,(don`t ask)and he put the frighteners on everybody saying he could calculate how the grp upperworks would expand at a different rate to the alloy hull.
Debenhams was the last raceboat we did,and we didn`t really want to do that either(No profit in one off raceboats),and don`t ask about the back end otherwise you`ll have Mr.Fuller in full flow and we`ll be here all night,enough to say it had several experimental arrangements of which Fletcher remarked ` that sterngear arrangement has left my props looking like f------g cabbages`.
That comment re bottom pressure is what it says.Once you have calculated the pressure likely on the bottom,you halve it to calculate the scantlings for the topside,but if you work in reverse and take the CUV topside scantlings and calculate what the equivalent topside pressure is and compare it with the bottom pressure, the ratio can be 25% not 50%.
In the early days we used data from Seaplane floats to get an idea of bottom pressures and well as the usual formulas in books and papers.When you think a CUV bottom is 8mm over E.R. and 5mm over rest,you have to decide where the changeover point is,and you won`t get that from books.We even had a guy pitch up from the aerospace industry ,who asked why each deck beam wasn`t a different size as you went forward to the stem and reduced it`s span.After much rolling of eyes,it was pointed out to him,we ain`t designing Concorde mate,and so it went on.

olli · 13-01-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

...We a had GRP Buzzi hull turn up with a real bugger of an upperworks lines as formulated by Porsche.Buzzi must have had a hangover that day,because the GRP hull was pretty ropey in construction,even the cockpit/E.R. bhd had bloody great holes in it for viewing the engines.Incredible.I think the Austrian who built it ,never had Buzzi pay him a visit to see how bad it was.Anyway shead design was asked to make it right,so after scrapping it,because of the complicated deck lines (like one of those WW I torpedo boats with a large hump deck cross section changing throughout the length) it was decided to split the alloy/grp constr at the topside knuckle line.After getting as far building the alloy hull and wood plug....

Well, totally off topic but I am curious about that hull. That Austrian must have been Horst Stross and the hull a prototype of his 27' 'Kineo' boats. The only ali Kineo that I know of was a single step Race version built by Stain. The other Kineos were as far as I know built by Thyssen Nordseewerke in composite as was the 50' look-alike built by Intercantieri? Do you have any pics of the boat you wrote about?

Back to CUV, how many were made of this nice little thing:
http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1979_.jpg.html

FLYING FISH · 13-01-2009, 01:58 PM

Spot on,Olli.Horst Stross was the man.They wanted 27,40 & 50ft versions,but as far as I know only the 27ft was built in USA.That 50ft must have been a dummy boat.The deck lines was a real good one to sort in the days before CAD.Can`t find any reference to HP for the 50ft.To have Porsche power for something that big seems a bit ambitious.

Black_Tornado · 13-01-2009, 02:05 PM

[

Back to CUV, how many were made of this nice little thing:
http://media.boatmad.com/gallery/v/g...1979_.jpg.html[/QUOTE]

Hi olli;
it is not a CUV but originally it was built by the SIAI-Ambrosini - a brand specialized in the constructions in light alloy of the aeronautic branch of SIAI-Marchetti were builders of the most famous Italian bombers of the second world war.
The boat that I believe was a 28' designed by Gagliotta named Freccia D'Argento and compete in the first years of seventy with Nicola Chiatante and others drivers. Best info can be had perhaps in the precious file Race Results of Flyin Fish on Boatmad-Multimedia.
Then that boat remained to receive dust for several years when the Commander Petroni discover it and then was modified radically by CUV- was totally stripped then leaving only the frames and receiving a new deck (with a typical CUV windscreen)sides and hull with three running strakes instead of original two.
It was the first offshore boat for Alberto Smania in 1979 as La Smania and then for the others venetians brothers Vio as La Cornacchietta.
It was a single engine(MerCruiser) boat with stern drive.
Perhaps in the intents of the CUV there was the idea to give succession to this boat with others to compete in class 2 but there was not any new orders and that remained the only sample.
The cats had taken the upper hand.

olli · 13-01-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

Spot on,Olli.Horst Stross was the man.They wanted 27,40 & 50ft versions,but as far as I know only the 27ft was built in USA.That 50ft must have been a dummy boat.The deck lines was a real good one to sort in the days before CAD.Can`t find any reference to HP for the 50ft.To have Porsche power for something that big seems a bit ambitious.

Once again blown away by your knowledge and archive! Thanks for the info. I think the first pictures show the 50' that I thought of. Were these pictures taken at Genoa in '91? I don't know if this particular thing was just a mock up but I am sure they have made at least one real boat as it was for sale in Germany some years ago showing a TERRIBLE paintjob. The owner said it was originally powered by MerCruiser but he had changed it to mild Volvos. He promised to send me some pics but I never got them. However reading the article you have also posted I think I was wrong about the builder. As the article mentions Tencara I think it was Intermarine instead of Intercantieri?
Regarding that article, I was surprised to read that Tempest Yachts were involved at the early stages already. I knew they produced a Kineo look-alike marketing them as Tempest 27 XPE powered by 425HP Turbines but I thought that was later after the 'original' Kineos were produced at Thyssen in Emden, Germany?
At the time they were at Duesseldorf Boat Show for two years in a row but these guys were some arrogant d!ckheads with that "Don't even stare without an appointment" attitude. In the second year they had that aluminum Stain racer on display but no info on it whatsoever.

@ Black Tornado: Thank you for all the information, too. So sad there is only one. By the way is it possible that this boat is for sale in Italy at the moment?