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19-01-2011, 08:46 AM
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#21
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BananaShark Member
Country: UK
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Occupation: Racer and builder
Interests: Winning races
Boat name: BananaShark
Boat make: BananaShark 34' Race
Engines: Twin Yanmar BY 260's
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Posts: 4,638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterunwin
iF I WERE TO BUY LS3 CRATE ENGINES FROM GM MARINISE THEM MYSELF AND OFFER THEM FOR SALE TO OTHER TEAMS WOULD THEY QUALIFY FOT MARATHON?
Peter
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If you produced a catalogue and a price list it would certainly be hard to prove that they weren't any less of a production engine than something from someone like Ilmor?
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Cookee
British Champions! RIB Formula 1 2005
National Speed Record Holder at 90.15 (still)
www.bananasharkracing.com
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19-01-2011, 08:58 AM
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#22
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Moderator
Country: England
Location: Cornwall.
Occupation: Retired.
Interests: Golf & liquid lunches with friends.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cornwall.
Posts: 2,303
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There's always some "persons" who will protest these engines if someone fits them for racing right now - unfortunately. So this needs to be discussed at the ORC (RYA), agreed and sorted before going ahead. Frankly I am all for these engines being made available to Joe Public, great idea Pete!
ML.
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19-01-2011, 09:16 AM
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#23
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Registered User
Country: Norway
Boat make: Nothing fast...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 127
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there something in the rules about a production line of minimum 500 units in order to qualify as "production"? Seem to remember that it states that there must be an "intented" run of 500 units, so why not make 2 and say you intend to make another 498 ?
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"If it has tits, tyres or a transom, it will have issues"
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19-01-2011, 09:35 AM
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#24
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BananaShark Member
Country: UK
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Occupation: Racer and builder
Interests: Winning races
Boat name: BananaShark
Boat make: BananaShark 34' Race
Engines: Twin Yanmar BY 260's
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Posts: 4,638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatFrank
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there something in the rules about a production line of minimum 500 units in order to qualify as "production"? Seem to remember that it states that there must be an "intented" run of 500 units, so why not make 2 and say you intend to make another 498 ?
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Looked for that in the rules - where does it mention a minimum production run?
__________________
Cookee
British Champions! RIB Formula 1 2005
National Speed Record Holder at 90.15 (still)
www.bananasharkracing.com
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19-01-2011, 09:36 AM
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#25
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BananaShark Member
Country: UK
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Occupation: Racer and builder
Interests: Winning races
Boat name: BananaShark
Boat make: BananaShark 34' Race
Engines: Twin Yanmar BY 260's
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Posts: 4,638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lloyd
There's always some "persons" who will protest these engines if someone fits them for racing right now - unfortunately. So this needs to be discussed at the ORC (RYA), agreed and sorted before going ahead. Frankly I am all for these engines being made available to Joe Public, great idea Pete!
ML.
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If they fit the rules - surely they fit the rules!
__________________
Cookee
British Champions! RIB Formula 1 2005
National Speed Record Holder at 90.15 (still)
www.bananasharkracing.com
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19-01-2011, 09:39 AM
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#26
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Registered User
Country: Job Centre
Location: In a box
Occupation: Chaos's gofer
Interests: Skiving
Boat make: Spectre 30
Engines: 2 x Promax 225
Cruising area: In the bath
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In a box
Posts: 5,201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookee
If they fit the rules - surely they fit the rules!
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Hmm, you'd have thought so wouldn't you?
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Chaos for Moderator.
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19-01-2011, 09:50 AM
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#27
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Chief C*nt!
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Brighton
Occupation: Sparkler prefect
Interests: Boats
Boat make: Other people's mostly
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brighton
Posts: 872
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Don't production engines need to be homologated? Surely the rules don't leave "production" undefined?
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What could possibly go wrong?
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19-01-2011, 01:21 PM
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#28
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BananaShark Member
Country: UK
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Occupation: Racer and builder
Interests: Winning races
Boat name: BananaShark
Boat make: BananaShark 34' Race
Engines: Twin Yanmar BY 260's
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Posts: 4,638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Rocket
Don't production engines need to be homologated? Surely the rules don't leave "production" undefined?
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Marathon engines don't homologation and I haven't found any mention of production numbers, just that they have to be advertised production "Mainstream" production motors - maybe that would scupper Peters plans, does anyone have any more of a definition?
__________________
Cookee
British Champions! RIB Formula 1 2005
National Speed Record Holder at 90.15 (still)
www.bananasharkracing.com
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19-01-2011, 02:23 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: At Home
Occupation: Boat Stuff
Interests: Boating, Shooting,Fishing
Boat name: Oklahoma / Project Racing Team
Boat make: Aqua Star 33 - a tug!
Engines: Perkins Sabre 300
Cruising area: Round Britain
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: At Home
Posts: 126
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what about Goldfish production engines (D-Max) 380 hp
full production engine
hundreds in the market
CE approved
full warranty
same base engine as Yanmar and Yamaha
look on there webb site
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19-01-2011, 02:45 PM
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#30
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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The idea of the smaller classes engine rules, was to make it as affordable as possible and fair...not expensive and elite.
If motors like the D-max were allowed, it would mean ANYONE who wanted to run diesel in D class would have to run these VERY expensive specialist engines to be competitive and std Yanmars would be serious underdogs.. Why is it so hard for some to understand that. Or is it only Goldfish and their agents that think it would be 'fair'. Do you think that would be likely to increase the numbers in D class?
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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19-01-2011, 03:03 PM
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#31
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: At Home
Occupation: Boat Stuff
Interests: Boating, Shooting,Fishing
Boat name: Oklahoma / Project Racing Team
Boat make: Aqua Star 33 - a tug!
Engines: Perkins Sabre 300
Cruising area: Round Britain
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: At Home
Posts: 126
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sorry didnt mean to upset anyone!
just trying to get a few of the goldfish to race this year,RB12 and 2013
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19-01-2011, 03:22 PM
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#32
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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No ones upset, it's just frustrating when no one seems to understand why the rules are as they are, and everyone wants to change them all the the time.
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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19-01-2011, 03:54 PM
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#33
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Registered User
Country: Sweden
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
No ones upset, it's just frustrating when no one seems to understand why the rules are as they are, and everyone wants to change them all the the time.
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The rules are perfect now
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19-01-2011, 08:22 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Country: UK
Location: Hampshire
Interests: Powerboats,Commentating, Bikes
Boat make: None at the moment
Cruising area: Wherever I can get a ride !
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
The idea of the smaller classes engine rules, was to make it as affordable as possible and fair...not expensive and elite.
If motors like the D-max were allowed, it would mean ANYONE who wanted to run diesel in D class would have to run these VERY expensive specialist engines to be competitive and std Yanmars would be serious underdogs.. Why is it so hard for some to understand that. Or is it only Goldfish and their agents that think it would be 'fair'. Do you think that would be likely to increase the numbers in D class?
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Well said Jon.
We must avoid the "Arms Race" on engines which has destroyed all similar racing over the years.
Remember "P" Production Classes - Mike Lloyd certainly does !
Right from after the 1962 race, when Tramontana 1 had 2308 hp against most others 650 or so max, we have had this sort of thing.
Can't some racers understand the ethos of a "level playing field" ?
With finances for many so tight at present - why try to rock the boat ?
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19-01-2011, 09:32 PM
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#35
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Hampshire
Occupation: Credit Crunched
Interests: Rally Driving
Boat name: Double 2 Shirts
Boat make: Planatec 41
Engines: 2x625's+ From Uncle Sam
Cruising area: Solent
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin The Talker
Well said Jon.
We must avoid the "Arms Race" on engines which has destroyed all similar racing over the years.
Remember "P" Production Classes - Mike Lloyd certainly does !
Right from after the 1962 race, when Tramontana 1 had 2308 hp against most others 650 or so max, we have had this sort of thing.
Can't some racers understand the ethos of a "level playing field" ?
With finances for many so tight at present - why try to rock the boat ?
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Where vast sums of Money are involved you build to the rules...Because the rules are the rules, as drafted by those who know...
if some "Other Understanding" Was intended then it would have been included within the rules, as those who drafted the said rules are "Experts in their field"
No one is perfect and rules are open to interpretation unless drafted concisely.
Dangerous minefield ground is trodden by those drafting.. best advice is always consult a legal advisor - at least you can sue them if things go wrong....
Sorry Jon if this upsets you but hey.. every penny spent on legal advice is a penny well spent for rule makers, just take a look at Motor Racing ie. F1 - massive advances through interpretation of the rules
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20-01-2011, 07:07 AM
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pash 1
.....every penny spent on legal advice is a penny well spent for rule makers, just take a look at Motor Racing ie. F1 - massive advances through interpretation of the rules
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...or all Solicitors can **** off and die, making the World a far better place....no offence, like.
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“Never try to wrestle a pig” ™ The Sparkler Prefect
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20-01-2011, 09:28 AM
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#37
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: East Mids
Occupation: MD hydraulic/engineering company
Interests: Fast cars, bikes,quads, boats, going fast...etc
Boat name: Cheetah
Boat make: Hunton XRS37
Engines: Volvo D6 with DPR drives
Cruising area: So'hampton
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: East Mids
Posts: 557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S1DEY
what about Goldfish production engines (D-Max) 380 hp
full production engine
hundreds in the market
CE approved
full warranty
same base engine as Yanmar and Yamaha
look on there webb site
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Hi SIDEY,
Having had the misfortune to work with diesel engines most of my life i definitely don't want to come home at weekends and play with them. The reason for looking at alternative power units is to try and find something that is very cost effective. A brand new 6.2GM crate engine complete with ECU and serpentine accessory drive is only £6000.00. Being fairly handy with the tools i can marinise them myself and then make my own surface drive which could be used in E Class as a single and in D Class as twins for a lot less money than propriotry engines and drives, i am not wishing to change the rules here.. just saving money and providing me with a great deal of entertainment during the design and build
Peter
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20-01-2011, 09:48 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Country: England
Location: Warsash
Occupation: Boat Designer
Interests: sport
Boat name: Santana
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Warsash
Posts: 1,838
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Sounds really good Peter - and as we all know Powerboating is never going to be a cheap sport - and even less so with Marathon racing.
But if we can make the entry class, E, more accessable than all the better.
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20-01-2011, 11:51 AM
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#39
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Chief C*nt!
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Brighton
Occupation: Sparkler prefect
Interests: Boats
Boat make: Other people's mostly
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brighton
Posts: 872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
The idea of the smaller classes engine rules, was to make it as affordable as possible and fair...not expensive and elite.
If motors like the D-max were allowed, it would mean ANYONE who wanted to run diesel in D class would have to run these VERY expensive specialist engines to be competitive and std Yanmars would be serious underdogs.. Why is it so hard for some to understand that. Or is it only Goldfish and their agents that think it would be 'fair'. Do you think that would be likely to increase the numbers in D class?
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OK, I've dug out the rules.
a) Engines eligible for Marathon classes other than the classes A, B and C (all these are "free") must be based on currently, or previously advertised/available mainstream production units (ie, Mercruiser, Volvo, OMC, Yanmar, Cummins, FPT etc) available to the general public through normal distribution channels with a minimum production run of 500 units. Engines should be from the pleasure line, not the race line of engines from any manufacturer.
If the engine is listed with separate runner exhaust, as described in section (g), the motor is not acceptable. As an example, the Merc 525hp motor used in P1, has CMI headers with runner lengths greater than 6” long, so these motors would not be permissible. The old Merc 500 carb, had GILL/Merc alloy manifolds with common plenum, they would be acceptable, as would STD Merc 496HO‟s, or 502efi‟s.
b) The original bore & stroke must be retained, however, an allowance will be made for OEM piston oversize, i.e., +0.030.
c) Inlet system (intake manifold, intercooler, throttle body etc) MUST remain OEM; throttle bodies must retain OEM internal dimensions
I don't know what mods are made to a D Max - are their exhausts compliant? are they bored out? How about the inlet system? Can someone who knows more tell us?
Apart from that there's some woolly wording in paragraph a. It gives us the figure of 500 units, but what does "based on" mean? What was the thought behind that?
What does "race line" actuall mean? Presumably it had something like Mercury in mind, but does it actually mean anything?
As far as I can see, as the rules currently stand, anyone could take a mainstream production engine and breathe on it within the limits of exhaust, bore/stroke and inlet system and legitimately race it.
Providing they don't specifically market it as a race engine then they could also sell them and they would remain legal to race.
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What could possibly go wrong?
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20-01-2011, 03:15 PM
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Rocket
OK, I've dug out the rules.
I don't know what mods are made to a D Max - are their exhausts compliant? are they bored out? How about the inlet system? Can someone who knows more tell us?
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Come on S1DEY over to you on this one
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