Marathon

[S1DEY]

the D-Max is compliant as far as i can see in the rules
but told it would not be fair to run them in classD as they cost more?
didnt see that bit in the book or that you have to disclose what you have done?
these engines have bin in production for years

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rocket

I don't know what mods are made to a D Max - are their exhausts compliant? are they bored out? How about the inlet system? Can someone who knows more tell us?

As I understand it, different turbochargers, bigger intercooler, injectors, pump etc. possibly some internal work too.


If there has been more than 500 built, and someone gets these 'cleared' for classes E to D, I think it would be a shame.

One engine type dominating a class (such as the old Class III 2 & 4 litre with the merc 2.0 OB's) when that engine is reasonably priced, thus available to the masses is one thing, but if the engine in question is a very expensive, low volume 'special', I think it'll be counter productive for the lower racing classes, going straight back to the usual situation where the sport shoots itself in the foot. Big bucks racing should be confined to the higher classes, we have to stop the grass roots classes ending up too expensive to be an entry level.

JMHO

[Mike Lloyd]

Jon's right of course.

The problem here is that if you run a hairs breadth from the rules someone WILL protest you, especially if you are winning. It’s human nature unfortunately.

I don’t know how many of you have been protested at a powerboat race but it’s not funny, I have been there twice when Cruiser Racing. As soon as you are protested the rumours start and it takes hours getting the necessary information together to convince a Race Jury you are in the right and in the meantime the other racers are really p....d of having to wait for prize giving. I can assure you that you are not the flavour of the month regardless of the fact that you win the case - see Cowes last year. If you lose you become a pariah.

It is simple, get both engines, the ILMOR OPS MV8 6.2L, and the D-Max examined by the RYA and the cost and principle of Marathon Racing as quoted by Jon just now taken into consideration as well as the mods when making their decision as to which classes they can run in. Then there is no contest, or protest.

Also, the great thing about Marathon racing is that over two hundred & fifty miles the sea is the great leveler. Especially if you have another 250 miles the next day and the next!!
ML.
.

[Johnny Rocket]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

If there has been more than 500 built, and someone gets these 'cleared' for classes E to D, I think it would be a shame.

But if they are within the rules then they must be allowed, surely? If it doesn't fit the rules, then it must be clear why. To disallow a motor that meets the letter of the rules on the basis that it's "not fair" or "too expensive" would make the rules a bit of a farce and would be open to all sorts of manipulation.

I'm sure there's room for some clarification of the terms "production", "based on" and "race line" without actually changing the rules, but it should be clear and easy to understand and must be applied consistently.

The decision making process should then be something like this:

Is the motor a "production" unit in its own right, with 500 or more produced?
- If "yes" is its production classed as a "race line"?
- - If "yes" then the motor is NOT elible
- - If "no" then the motor is eligible
- If "no" is it based on a production unit?
- - If "no" then the motor is NOT eligible
- - If "yes" does it comply with exhaust/bore/stroke/inlet system as per rules
- - - If "no" then the motor is NOT elible
- - - If "yes" then the motor is eligible

I don't know where the D Max comes in this, but between now and 2013 you can be pretty sure that there will be other people reading the rules and trying to build the best motors for the job as well. Today's competitive motor just may not be competitive in 2013.

[Mikko Oikari]

No way there will be 500 D-Max-engines made 2013...

[PhatFrank]

Originally Posted by Mikko Oikari

No way there will be 500 D-Max-engines made 2013...

Well, actually they shouldn't be to far off. I don't know the exact numbers but I think they are over 300 now.

Anyway, agree on the sentiment that they are bloody expensive and that this may not be in line with the "intention" of the rules. But please keep in mind that GF spent a small fortune developing the 36 RIB for RB08 specifically with their DMAX as the main engine, and I understand their frustration when these boats now are not eligable for D-class (in which they are, I admit, a lot faster than the opposition). E-class would be the optimal (and fair) class for these boats, but as we've discussed before it seems unlikely that anyone will want to spend this amount of money for a fast, light craft only to fill it with a lot of weight in order to meet the minimum weight requirements. I respect the rulemakers decision (and intention) but I'm guessing S1DEY asked because he has a few customers with these boats that want to race, and that bought them after seeing the success in RB08. I know I'd feel a little sick if this had happened to us, and I'd try damn hard to find a way to enter my boat in these wonderful events...

[Jon Fuller]

It's very difficult, and I really do see both sides of this, but making a great std engine like the Yanmar 315 uncompetitive is I'm sure you can see, class suicide for the lower Marathon fleet and the only answer I can see, is a stock & sport element to each class, and adding even more classes would be mighty unpopular.

But two or three wealthy folk prepared to spend many hundreds of thousands of pounds on a boat to enter D class, a race series doesn't make. The fleet needs to be a healthy size to be feasible, and that, on cost grounds will need to be made up mostly of non 'exotica'.

I don't have an answer, but I can see loads of trouble ahead, and dwindling fleet numbers as a result....here we go again. Another own goal for powerboating.

[Johnny Rocket]

Unless you race one design (and as we all know, that's no guarantee of a level playing field either) surely there's always going to be someone who hits the sweet spot and gets an edge?

At least with Marathon we know that top speed is just one element of being competitive.

[Jon Fuller]

£360K is quite a sweetspot though eh.

getting on for 4 times that of an equivalent budget racer with Yanmars

[Johnny Rocket]

Yes, but that's not £360k of motor is it? A Goldfish with stock Yanmars is still way more than a budget racer.

[Jon Fuller]

True, but motors are like twice the price a std Yanmar

[Mike Ring]

[QUOTE=Johnny Rocket;197671]But if they are within the rules then they must be allowed, surely? If it doesn't fit the rules, then it must be clear why. To disallow a motor that meets the letter of the rules on the basis that it's "not fair" or "too expensive" would make the rules a bit of a farce and would be open to all sorts of manipulation.

I'm sure there's room for some clarification of the terms "production", "based on" and "race line" without actually changing the rules, but it should be clear and easy to understand and must be applied consistently.





If I remember rightly , back in the mists of time a rule existed in Class 4 ( OCR now ) whereby the engine / rig? package price had to fall within certain parameters. Now this would be a good way to keep the lower classes real and exclude cheque book racing from the " cheaper end " where we most need the numbers to enter the sport. From a builders point of view , those of us who design and build raceboats because we love the things still need some return on the massive investment of tooling for those boats and not to have a class stymied because one or two well off guys can afford that which is unaffordable to the many.
Before I get comments about its the 'sport ' that comes first just remember if it were not for the builder/ designer going out on a financial limb and tooling up for race/ sports boats in the first place there would be no affordable "production" raceboats. Add up the costs of commissioning a boat and tooling from scratch as a one off and ask yourself if you would pay that much to go racing ?

Mike

[Mike Ring]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

It's very difficult, and I really do see both sides of this, but making a great std engine like the Yanmar 315 uncompetitive is I'm sure you can see, class suicide for the lower Marathon fleet and the only answer I can see, is a stock & sport element to each class, and adding even more classes would be mighty unpopular.

But two or three wealthy folk prepared to spend many hundreds of thousands of pounds on a boat to enter D class, a race series doesn't make. The fleet needs to be a healthy size to be feasible, and that, on cost grounds will need to be made up mostly of non 'exotica'.

I don't have an answer, but I can see loads of trouble ahead, and dwindling fleet numbers as a result....here we go again. Another own goal for powerboating.

I am with you Jono......Keep the lower classes affordable


Mike

[Jono]

Way back in the mists of time...there was a bike racing series...specifically for those who wanted to race but were skint.....there was a great rule....it was something like....any of the lower order finishers was allowed to buy the engine..or it may have been whole bike....of the top three..for a fixed price.....in those days it was around £250...but you get the idea..

[Mike Ring]

Originally Posted by Jono

Way back in the mists of time...there was a bike racing series...specifically for those who wanted to race but were skint.....there was a great rule....it was something like....any of the lower order finishers was allowed to buy the engine..or it may have been whole bike....of the top three..for a fixed price.....in those days it was around £250...but you get the idea..

That was a 'one make' production series . In the UK and Yamaha R 6 s ???

good idea but could not work for boats of differing manufacture.

Mike

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Mike Ring

That was a 'one make' production series . In the UK and Yamaha R 6 s ???

good idea but could not work for boats of differing manufacture.

Mike

Naah...bit before R6s.....

Still works for different classes...think about this...engines will be available to anyone...who will risk spending 20X on an engine..knowing if he wins...it'll be available for 5X....

[peterunwin]

Can anyone advise an up to date price of the Steyr and Yanmar engines with the XR leg?

Peter

[Boatless-Again]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rocket

Unless you race one design (and as we all know, that's no guarantee of a level playing field either) surely there's always going to be someone who hits the sweet spot and gets an edge?

At least with Marathon we know that top speed is just one element of being competitive.

I agree with this. Everyone one here is pissing that this cost X and those cost Y and we only want to pay X - X and do not want some wealthy bloke to come in and ruin our cheap fun for us.

Well then make it a spec class just like the "superstock" class. Can't have it both ways and of course there is always going to be those that hate the Yanmar, love the X and those that love Yanmar and hate X and we will have to listen both of them cry all the time. There is no winners, just winers

According to the rules, neither the D-max nor Ilmor can even be considered as they have neither made 500 units especially Ilmor! This rule alone eliminates anyone other than a major established company being considered as to sell that many in todays economy is a hard chore.

1 motor
1 boat make
Set kg
Set knots...

No crying

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Boatless-Again

Set knots...

No crying

How do you do that? Like the fantastic P1 system where everyone lines up a mile from the finish line gazing at stopwatches!...that's bollox.

If speeds need keeping down, just write the rules for engines, and minimum weight such that they can't go any faster than considered safe / reasonable.

It's easy to blurt the "well if you want cheap, you shouldn't be powerboat racing", but powerboat racing is fast becoming extinct. My views on affordable racing are confined purely to the lower, entry level classes. If you're got big bucks to play with, go play with the big boys in C-sport, B and A, the sky's the limit there. But leave the grass roots stuff alone.

[Boatless-Again]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

How do you do that? Like the fantastic P1 system where everyone lines up a mile from the finish line gazing at stopwatches!...that's bollox.

If speeds need keeping down, just write the rules for engines, and minimum weight such that they can't go any faster than considered safe / reasonable.

It's easy to blurt the "well if you want cheap, you shouldn't be powerboat racing", but powerboat racing is fast becoming extinct. My views on affordable racing are confined purely to the lower, entry level classes. If you're got big bucks to play with, go play with the big boys in C-sport, B and A, the sky's the limit there. But leave the grass roots stuff alone.

Hey, I am not the one crying that racing should come to my budget rather than the other way around. If you want to cry about others ambitions an abilities then so be it. I just posted the solution and you didn't like that even. Can't have it both ways.

Powerboat racing, scratch that... Any word in front of racing is an oxymoron as there is no such thing as affordable racing at any level for everyone and everyone desires to race at a level above their abilities and pocketbook.