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09-12-2009, 10:35 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade
The hulls are actually sound, the problem with the outfits is they are so F+£^%*ng heavy that they are trimming to get the boats running. one of the guys who raced with my dad a few times in OCR could not believe the difference in performance and handling to the honda 150 boats.
also it is the drivers putting the boat in funny shapes and the navis telling/ not telling them what is going on and where/ when to turn & go.
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Don't know much about boat design but if I took the engine out of my Mercedes estate and mounted it on the roof it would probably behave the same way. Those Honda engine are 276kg and very top heavy, bear in mind the boats are only 900kg
I have bought one of the 225 cougars and converting to to inboard and moving the weight forward, hopefully it will transform the boat.
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09-12-2009, 10:36 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Country: UK
Location: Devon
Occupation: Garage Proprietor
Interests: PowerBoat Racing
Boat name: If Only
Boat make: Bernico F3 OCR, Bernico Prototype Inboard, and some Ribs
Engines: Yamaha Pro V 115
Cruising area: UK, France
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Devon
Posts: 3,095
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It was a good guess !!
H44. Boat Weight.
(a) All boats shall have a minimum weight: 150 class…….1120kg
225 class…….1120kg
The minimum weight is the sole responsibility of the team.
(b) The minimum weight shall be calculated post race with all safety equipment
on board. All or any boats may be subject to post race weighing and must be
made available at the request of the scrutineer and directly after racing
finishes. No extra ballast shall be in the boat at the time of weighing nor shall
any water be in the bow tank of the 225 boat.
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__________________
If Only
National Outboard Immersed Propeller Mono Record 103mph
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10-12-2009, 12:13 AM
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#23
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Registered User
Country: Ireland
Location: Dublin
Occupation: Boatbuilder
Boat make: Hydrostream V-king, 650SS OCR ,Ring 21, Ring 18, Phantom 18.
Engines: 300Hp Mercury 2.4, 130 Yamaha, Bridgeport EFI, XR6, Merc 200.
Cruising area: Malahide, Dublin
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dublin
Posts: 1,803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCRDA
I believe around 1100kg !!
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Jesus! Are they built from reinforced concrete ?
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10-12-2009, 12:33 AM
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#24
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Registered User
Country: shropshire england.
Location: oswestry
Occupation: Retired
Interests: Yodelling
Boat name: Veni Vidi Vici or Conked
Boat make: G.P.14
Engines: 4h.p. Mercury
Cruising area: Cap de Agde
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: oswestry
Posts: 1,311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrostream
Jesus! Are they built from reinforced concrete ?
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Nah,50 bags of Carlite bonding and some board finish in the gel coat,you dont see Phantoms chuckin you out like that.
__________________
when in doubt trim outCARPE DIEM
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10-12-2009, 01:55 AM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowdy
Nah,50 bags of Carlite bonding and some board finish in the gel coat,you dont see Phantoms chuckin you out like that.
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Ahhhh, but you proberly would not put a top heavy four stroke weighing in at 276kg on the back of a Phantom
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10-12-2009, 06:27 AM
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#26
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Registered User
Country: new zealand
Location: hamilton
Occupation: student
Interests: ski racing
Boat name: Anti Cyclone
Boat make: Light weight bullet 1850
Engines: Evunrude 225 Etec H.O
Cruising area: lakes and riverrs in the north island
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: hamilton
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCRDA
Thats more like it !! What motors are you guys running and what boat weights ? Looks like you have a more realistic power-weight ratio !!
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The boats run 150 hondas, dont know boat weights because im not into offshore i just waterski race. The boats top speed is 60ish mph... in flat water and who can remember a flat offshore race?
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10-12-2009, 08:30 AM
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#27
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Registered User
Country: ENGLAND
Boat name: V13
Boat make: V24 batboat
Engines: 5.7 320hp
Cruising area: SOUTHCOAST
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,131
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honda
with tv footage like that no wonder our insurance keeps going up!!!
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10-12-2009, 08:40 AM
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#28
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Registered User
Country: ENGLAND
Boat name: V13
Boat make: V24 batboat
Engines: 5.7 320hp
Cruising area: SOUTHCOAST
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,131
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honda
after watching the nz footage they appear to be going faster and are much more balanced
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10-12-2009, 09:07 AM
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#29
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Registered User
Country: new zealand
Location: hamilton
Occupation: student
Interests: ski racing
Boat name: Anti Cyclone
Boat make: Light weight bullet 1850
Engines: Evunrude 225 Etec H.O
Cruising area: lakes and riverrs in the north island
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: hamilton
Posts: 37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RHINO
after watching the nz footage they appear to be going faster and are much more balanced
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Yea the boats they use in this series have proven themselves over and over in both ski racing and offshore. They handle the rough really well and corner like their on rails.
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10-12-2009, 11:36 AM
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#30
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Occupation: Sales Director
Interests: My Boat of course
Boat make: Extreme 21
Engines: Merc V8
Cruising area: Solent
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Posts: 587
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I'm sure the engine weight and high COG doesnt help with the cougars. The 225 seem to chine walk alot and the 150's seem stern heavy and like they could do with some bow ballast (lots of stuffing and also landing stern first hence the hooks i guess - now hull in water to keep them straight)!
The NZ boats look to have the motors mounted higher and seem to be able to trim out to surface pierce (you can see roosters in the NZ vid but not UK. They also look much lighter and flighty and are clearly sripped out bare bones racers!!
Cant wait to see a 225 boat with a lightweight merc racing motor. I bet one would fly with a 280ROS
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The Docta
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10-12-2009, 02:54 PM
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#31
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Registered Ozone AbUser
Occupation: Marine Engineer
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 389
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I am sure They use Cougar's on the 150's
The 21ft Boat is quite high from the water so the CG is a bit topsy turby! They have a wide beam for the length....Oh er missus. The 150 lump weighs so much hanging up high out the stern that the hulls have to be "Bumper" boat layup to stand a chance
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10-12-2009, 04:38 PM
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade
The hulls are actually sound, the problem with the outfits is they are so F+£^%*ng heavy that they are trimming to get the boats running. one of the guys who raced with my dad a few times in OCR could not believe the difference in performance and handling to the honda 150 boats.
also it is the drivers putting the boat in funny shapes and the navis telling/ not telling them what is going on and where/ when to turn & go.
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ahhh much like my marshan then
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10-12-2009, 05:55 PM
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#33
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Registered User
Country: Job Centre
Location: In a box
Occupation: Chaos's gofer
Interests: Skiving
Boat make: Spectre 30
Engines: 2 x Promax 225
Cruising area: In the bath
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In a box
Posts: 5,201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Docta
and the 150's seem stern heavy and like they could do with some bow ballast (lots of stuffing and also landing stern first hence the hooks i guess - now hull in water to keep them straight)!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A30
I am sure They use Cougar's on the 150's
The 21ft Boat is quite high from the water so the CG is a bit topsy turby! They have a wide beam for the length....Oh er missus. The 150 lump weighs so much hanging up high out the stern that the hulls have to be "Bumper" boat layup to stand a chance
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It's a shame you 2 experts weren't around when I started the series!!!
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Chaos for Moderator.
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10-12-2009, 08:14 PM
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Davis
It's a shame you 2 experts weren't around when I started the series!!!
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Hi Tony, doubt you will remember me but came to see you when you was working out of Pool building Extremes. I bought a Sharp 26' bare hull and deck and you gave me a lot of helpful advise on building it.
I believe you designed and built the early 150's just wondered if you know much about the design of the 225 hulls, in particular why they had extended box style transom.
I also have a thread at the moment in the Technical Q&A section and wonder if you have any thought on drive height on 225 hull.
Kind regards
David
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10-12-2009, 08:23 PM
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#35
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Occupation: Sales Director
Interests: My Boat of course
Boat make: Extreme 21
Engines: Merc V8
Cruising area: Solent
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Posts: 587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Davis
... when I started the series!!!
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And here was me thinking you were a "humble boat builder".
Just observations on my part. I would never claim to be an expert - well not in building or setting up race boats anyhow!
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The Docta
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12-12-2009, 04:11 AM
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 496
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the
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade
The hulls are actually sound, the problem with the outfits is they are so F+£^%*ng heavy that they are trimming to get the boats running. one of the guys who raced with my dad a few times in OCR could not believe the difference in performance and handling to the honda 150 boats.
also it is the drivers putting the boat in funny shapes and the navis telling/ not telling them what is going on and where/ when to turn & go.
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The video mainly shows the 225's spinning out and capsizing, apart from the fact that they may be a little top heavy it is probable more to do with stepped plane hulls designs in general. If you go to the link below it explains whilst the up side is 10 to 15% more speed, the down side is they can have some funny habits. In particular there is a section on the "Down side of stepped plane hulls"
http://www.leisureboating.co.za/files/file_177.pdf
There is also a video of an Outerlimits spinning out for no apparent reason at the link below.
The Outerlimits proberly stays up right as it has a lower C of G.
There is another clip of Lucas Oils boat barrel rolling.
And another one at
I believe it is nothing to do with bad design but a quirk of stepped plane hulls probably helped slightly by being top heavy. You may get a more efficient hull but you pay the price when it goes wrong. So lets no slate the designers.
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12-12-2009, 04:07 PM
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#37
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: london
Occupation: Powerboat Skipper
Interests: Boats , bikes!
Boat name: Renegade
Boat make: GPV-RENEGADE
Engines: 150 HO etec
Cruising area: Thames, south coast, anywhere!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: london
Posts: 2,330
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In my oppinion, just by looking at the 225 boats they are just too narrow. therefore high COG, couple that with lots of trim you will get stabillity problems.
But as i say these are just my thoughts.
Paul
__________________
Im re branding pepper spray as Arsehole Repellant.im going to make a fortune.
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16-12-2009, 12:08 AM
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade
In my oppinion, just by looking at the 225 boats they are just too narrow. therefore high COG, couple that with lots of trim you will get stabillity problems.
But as i say these are just my thoughts.
Paul
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That's why I am converting mine to lightweight inboard with lower C of G, it should transform the boat.
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16-12-2009, 09:22 AM
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#39
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade
In my oppinion, just by looking at the 225 boats they are just too narrow. therefore high COG, couple that with lots of trim you will get stabillity problems.
But as i say these are just my thoughts.
Paul
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As a general rule, stepped boats don't require positive trim to gain top speed, so it isn't likely to be the cause of instability.
I reckon, the very high powerhead weight, and subsequent high CofG, and curved aft topsides are the main contributors
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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16-12-2009, 05:50 PM
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#40
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: North Hampshire
Occupation: Sales
Interests: Powerboat Racing
Boat name: Team Purple, Team Shark
Boat make: Sperstock 150, 300 race boats, Class 3s cat
Engines: Honda 150, 2.5 efi ROS*2
Cruising area: Solent
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North Hampshire
Posts: 125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy21
That's why I am converting mine to lightweight inboard with lower C of G, it should transform the boat.
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didn't know there was such a thing as a lightweight diesel!
Think Mr Fuller is spot on, but only seems to occur when the boats are pushed to the edge racing....
Suspect moving the weight forward will give you a whole range of new problems, hook very easily unless the back is well planted - but thats the nature of a stepped boat i believe..... If you watch ole reggies video on his website on how to drive a stepped boat, he blames the hooking on trimming the nose down in high speed corners, when the step becomes over efficient and loses too much friction on the water
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