Anyone want to see American Muscle??

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by Ian
So Don never set up Apache he just did a deal with the land and Apache bought a hull design / mould. Correct.

Don had a no-compete clause after he sold Cig.the mold has all the markings of a 38 Flat Deck..stretched...
Ben and Bob bought to mold from Don..it wasn't being used
and APACHE was born...
Don and Bob were friends..Don did not give the land to Bob until Bob and Ben split...that was later

[Jon Fuller]

The Cig hulls seem to be everywhere, in one form or another.

On the front of a Cig, one of the spray rails has a slight fault right where it fades out into the stem, on the st/bd side, it sorta turns down just a bit compared to the other side, just the last 6" or so.

I've walked along the racking at Fort Apache looking at numerous makes and models of powerboats, and the number of boats that have the exact same 'Birth mark' is astonishing!

So I reckon, at one time or another, all those boats started life as some sort of 'splash', beit legal, or ilegal.
At a glance most of the big American mono's of that era look very similar anyway, on the running surface at least.

That's 'splashing' on a scale difficult to comprehend!

[cashbrain]

and Don was the one that did it the most...to start his other companies.Interesting that you noticed that,Jon

[Ian]

Originally posted by cashbrain
Ben and Bob broke off..Bob building under 41 FT boats and Ben built 41 and up...two different companies,same name, and they still raced together.

Cashbrain, I read the Apache thread on your forum last night and it makes interesting reading. I'm not that interested in the politics of the Steve Twins etc. but I wouldn't mind reading the posts from 17th May (you could PM them to me if you would/want/can)

I just want to get a few things straight and thought it better to ask here than on OPB.

So, two companies making boats under the same name. Then Kramer goes away and the USDOJ put McManus in charge and later sell him the company (not Fort Apache Marina, that got sold to someone else) he goes off to the West Coast of Florida and carries on making boats. Later still the USDOJ sell him the 'Federal' rights to the name 'Apache'. Meantime Bob Saccenti carries on making boats on 188th st as Apache Performance Boats as normal? Beleiving that he has the rights to the 'Apache' name under 'state' law. Then in 2003 Bob sells his 'Apache' to Thad. The bit that is missing for me is this 'How did Bob Saccenti's Apache go from being a successful company to a company that needed bailing out by Thad?'
I get the impression that Bob had closed 'Apache' on 188th st prior to 2003. Am I right.? If I am, why did it close? Was it just economical reasons?
Therefore are the photo's of the old moulds that Jon took Bob's old 'Apache' moulds ?

[Jon Fuller]

Originally posted by Ian
Therefore are the photo's of the old moulds that Jon took Bob's old 'Apache' moulds ?

Ian,
No, I think those moulds were mainly Cig, there's one deck mould in particular that has the deck line on the st/bd side higher than the Port, this I think must be the Bullet (31) I think! so that would suggest Cig, + it was right next door to the the old Cig plant, which at that time was still making boats.
This doesn't mean there wasn't any other type of moulds there of course!

The huge redy-orange deck mould looked like it could have been a 47, it certainly was big enough and was 'All foredeck' just like a 47 Apache...who knows......probably Jack actualy, so I'll wait on his opinion.

[Ian]

Jon,

Thanks. The reality is then, that the sight is probably not as sad as would first appear. What we are looking at in your pics is not the remains of a once great boat company, it's more the remains of a great boat companies old moulds (which have a shelf life anyway). The sad bit is the fact that the once great hangout and hive of industry known as Thunderboat Row and Fort Apache Marina have now gone. The manufacturers and faces remain, albeit now in different parts of America.

[cashbrain]

Originally posted by Ian
Cashbrain, I read the Apache thread on your forum last night and it makes interesting reading. I'm not that interested in the politics of the Steve Twins etc. but I wouldn't mind reading the posts from 17th May (you could PM them to me if you would/want/can)

I just want to get a few things straight and thought it better to ask here than on OPB.

So, two companies making boats under the same name. Then Kramer goes away and the USDOJ put McManus in charge and later sell him the company (not Fort Apache Marina, that got sold to someone else) he goes off to the West Coast of Florida and carries on making boats. Later still the USDOJ sell him the 'Federal' rights to the name 'Apache'. Meantime Bob Saccenti carries on making boats on 188th st as Apache Performance Boats as normal? Beleiving that he has the rights to the 'Apache' name under 'state' law. Then in 2003 Bob sells his 'Apache' to Thad. The bit that is missing for me is this 'How did Bob Saccenti's Apache go from being a successful company to a company that needed bailing out by Thad?'
__________________________________________________ __
There are many things that I am not at liberty to discuss,however,I can tell you that Bob was building 36&28's with Eric. Bob has "first rights" under trademark law as he started APACHE.This gets extrememly complex and not quite as simple as you've stated..much more to the story
__________________________________________________ __
I get the impression that Bob had closed 'Apache' on 188th st prior to 2003. Am I right.? If I am, why did it close? Was it just economical reasons?
__________________________________________________ __

YES,on all questions
__________________________________________________ ____
Therefore are the photo's of the old moulds that Jon took Bob's old 'Apache' moulds ?

__________________________________________________ _

The moulds that Jon took pics of are old Cig molds..I was there shortly before Jon and also had seen them in prior years.. they had Cig markings on them and this land was just adjacent to the Cig factory and the APACHE factory.

[Ian]

Jack,

Thanks for the information. I guess one day the Apache saga will be sorted.

Ian

[Ben]

'Apache Heritage' No. 50 if I recall correctly raced in Superboat Class in the early to mid 90's. Then again I could be (and probably am) completely wrong.

[Eric Froberg]

Flat water shots

[Eric Froberg]

landing

[Eric Froberg]

Nice flight

[Jon Fuller]

Hey Eric, I've been trying to get a copy of the video that those two 'trip 'n' near stuff' shots came from, Jack Lieske sent me the bermuda triangle vid, but I couldn't see it on that, do you know where I could get it?

[Eric Froberg]

I'll check the date and let you know Jon.

[Eric Froberg]

A 28'

[Eric Froberg]

28' CC

[Eric Froberg]

Fowey Light

[Jon Fuller]

Eric, I see in the pic you have a pair of 300's on that 28. Are they 'X's, and what top end do you achieve with that power?

PS, what does it weigh?

[Matt]

We came, we saw.
Very sad to see 188th street - nothing left now.
But looking forward to the next visit!

Originally posted by cashbrain
I have lots of pics..and would like to show all of you....
the idea is to get you to come over and have a little fun with us...who's first?

[littlenige]

The Apache Heritage was the mid 90´s championship winning Apache crewed by Patrick Mercurio and Richie Powers - it was retired after winning the title, and only brought out again to race the next year, when it won again! (I think!) running triple motors. I shall try and dig out another photo.