My take on 2 cycle oils

Jay Smith · 23-12-2009, 10:14 AM

IMO about oils:

First there are many great oils out there ( some better than others and most of that conclusion is strickly opinionated from hear say and not acutal hands on visual comparisons ) 99.9 % of ALL outboard failures are NOT oil related. I tear down, modify and build 1 to 3 engines a week with the every brand of oil thats sold used in them and I have came to several very apparent conclusions about whats good, better and best ( like Sears Roebuck advertised )

I have through research ( and observed failures first hand NOT hear say stories) come to the conclusion that steel sleeved engines live better on a blend, no matter who's blend.. Pen, Mercury ( Golden Spectro ) , etc...And a syn oil can be used on steel IF the ring thrust tention has lessoned so that the ring is not applying to much outboard thrust pressure to the bore ( OR TOTALLY BROKE IN )

Coated sleeved engines run and make MORE power on 100% syn oils after break - in on dino ( about 100 gallons of gas ran thru with the dino oil ) ( the reason Mercury doesn't suggest the running of a 100% syn oils in the race engines is THEY DON'T SELL OR OFFER ONE !!!!!.)

Certain oils that are designed to be recreational in nature should be used in engines turning 8000 or less rpms and under less stress. Anything turning over 8000 for extended run life at BIG rpms should use a specific oil for the stress and load those engines create.

As I said there are many good oils out there but always be careful listening to the "oil experts" most of the time there is a hidden agenda , THEY SELL IT AND MAKE A LIVING WITH YOU FOLLOWING THEIR SUGGESTIONS that results in AN OIL SALES and $$$ in their pocket.. I on the other hand don't make a dime on a drop of oil sales.

There are IMO two oils I have seen ran and litterly peel the chrome off the journal of a Mercury V-6 crank.Other than those two Bad Actors I don't think there are any TCW3 approved oils that would blow up a motor due to lack of quality,under recreational loads syn and or dino in make up , most outboards engines have way more reasons and causes for failure than oil quality...I'd say 99 to 1. Quanity or lack there of of oil takes many more out that quality..

Most of the time availability and price on recreational 2 cycle engine oil sales will always turn me toward Penn., or Mercury as they are always available at Wally World or most larger auto and sporting good outlets. IMO to ship a big $$ over kill oil for a recreational engine from miles away and eat not only the over kill price of the oil but the freight in these economic times is a bit ..... well your call. BUT if your stressing a motor over the protection of the "norm" by all means buy an oil to protect your investment..

Happy Boating,
Jay
__________

Jon Fuller · 23-12-2009, 02:49 PM

Sounds like sound advice. I don't suppose you're likely to name the two particularly bad brands you speak of?

Would it be possible to 'give a clue' to their identity if you don't want to actually name them?

JF

Bad Boy 717 · 23-12-2009, 03:22 PM

better not be Castrol Bio Lube, I have a garage full of the stuff!

Jay Smith · 23-12-2009, 05:49 PM

You have P.M. Jon !

My intention is NOT to create an oil war on this site. As I stated I have NO hidden agenda by selling lubes. I don't sell oil period. All I can report is on what I SEE with my own eyes. I have said many time I could care less what oils people choose , the wrong choice pays my new Z06 corvette notes

I have stated what oils brands many times earlier that I find to be adiquate to run engines and yield long longevitys per each engines needs... Can't go wrong with the Mercury oils ( Made by Golden Spectro ) the Pennzoil BLEND products on steel sleeved engines . These work great on recreational engines turning 8000 and less, if the motor is to be stressed I like Motol. Red Line, Alisyn BIO,Penn. 100 % syn. There is a popular oil that some are required to run in some US Drag racing clubs and I am told it will GUT a set of injectors. I have torn down a race engine that used this oil and find a gritty substance through out the complete engine and the Nicom bore are cloudy and looks like some one shot gray primer on them all... Some go QUEER because of what this oil smells like , it smells like $$$ going from the customer's wallet to me repairing these motors bores bearings and rings...

Your fine with the Castrol Scott if you don't skimp on the ratio ( oil to fuel )

Cheers,
Jay

baj666 · 23-12-2009, 08:00 PM

what ratio would you use on a 92 XR2 turning 7000 rpm Jay???..i use the mercury oil

Burty · 23-12-2009, 09:37 PM

I think Jay will say 40:1 but lets wait and see

Jay Smith · 23-12-2009, 10:08 PM

Burty wins the cigar. My suggestions are ANY 3 1/2" bore diameter engine ( 153 CI ) no matter what HP if the RPM is < 8000 or less I like 40:1 ... Any higher RPMS 32:1 ..

The smaller bored sized engines such as 120 CI and 142 CI 50: 1 is fine at
< 8000 RPMS and 40:1 > 8000 RPMS.....

Jay

Burty · 24-12-2009, 08:08 AM

And for all of us that don't live in the US i will translate.

Jay's suggestions are ANY 2.5 litre no matter what HP if the RPM is < 8000 or less I like 40:1 ... Any higher RPMS 32:1 ..

The smaller bored sized engines such as 2 litre and 2.4 litre 50: 1 is fine at
< 8000 RPMS and 40:1 > 8000 RPMS.....

So it looks like i don't get that cigar after all as an XR2 is a 2 litre motor

baj666 · 24-12-2009, 03:53 PM

[QUOTE=Burty;173482]And for all of us that don't live in the US i will translate.

Jay's suggestions are ANY 2.5 litre no matter what HP if the RPM is < 8000 or less I like 40:1 ... Any higher RPMS 32:1 ..

The smaller bored sized engines such as 2 litre and 2.4 litre 50: 1 is fine at
< 8000 RPMS and 40:1 > 8000 RPMS.....

So it looks like i don't get that cigar after all as an XR2 is a 2 litre motor[/QUOTE]

no and correct

Dan · 24-12-2009, 04:37 PM

So it looks like i don't get that cigar after all as an XR2 is a 2 litre motor[/QUOTE]

no and correct

[/QUOTE]

stricksy, your my hero

PerformanceDodge · 27-12-2009, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Smith

Burty wins the cigar. My suggestions are ANY 3 1/2" bore diameter engine ( 153 CI ) no matter what HP if the RPM is < 8000 or less I like 40:1 ... Any higher RPMS 32:1 ..

The smaller bored sized engines such as 120 CI and 142 CI 50: 1 is fine at
< 8000 RPMS and 40:1 > 8000 RPMS.....

Jay

Just out of curiosity, how did some of the old Yamaha engines get away with 100:1 mixture ? Was it due to the design of the engine or were they not very highly stressed.

Regards David

Jay Smith · 30-12-2009, 06:53 PM

Never heard of any oil that suggests 100:1 except Amzoil and I don't have any Lawn Mowers I'd run that in !!!

Ever thought that if the base oil stock had less solvent and was thicker the ratio would/could be greater ?

IMO: The smaller the bore the less oil the motor needs, also I find that engines with larger bores ( 3.500" ) required more oil in the ratio ( 40:1 to 32:1 ) the smaller the bore 2.4 the less oil is needed in the ratio 50:1 ...

DUUNO about Rice Motors ( Yamaha ) all I feel comfortable with is the Mercs I DO KNOW those what will and won't live.....

Have a great New Year !
Jay

scooby_hugh · 30-12-2009, 07:13 PM

iv only seen 100:1 on the old yamaha 2hp's all the others were 50:1 what year are you talking bout freddy?

Jon Fuller · 30-12-2009, 08:24 PM

There were loads of Yamaha 100:1 engines, shed loads of different HP's. I had a 1987 15hp that was 100:1

Eric Smillie could could confirm what size they went up to. I would imagine, everything that didn't have autolube.

fairly sure my mates 85 was 100:1 too.

Mrs Smillie · 30-12-2009, 09:16 PM

Hi John

From memory largest Yamaha with 100:1 was the 55 A or B
100:1 engines had a white ratio decal

60 C 60D (race engine) and all above including 85A where 50:1 red ratio decal

The factory had run engines as low a 500:1

Yours

Eric

Cookee · 31-12-2009, 08:02 AM

Castrol Biolube was allegedly a 100:1 oil - we were never brave enough to race with it at that ratio though!

Jon Fuller · 31-12-2009, 08:13 AM

Running different oil ratios isn't quite as simple as just changing the ratio.

Halving, or doubling the amount of oil for a given quantity of fuel also changes the viscosity of the final mix, and subsequently the jet size needed to maintain the same fuel metering. We've covered this before in a thread somewhere.

Jay Smith · 31-12-2009, 01:09 PM

Jon is dead on correct,
When one doubles the oil ratio the specific gravity of the fuel is dramaticly changed ( INCREASED ) ... I always tell my customers I NEVER double oil when breaking in ! I explain it leans the engine, they say HUH ? I expain what goes through a funnel quicker syrup or water. By thickening up the oil ratio you have created syrup it now has MORE resistance getting through a metering orfice either an injector ( with the same fuel pressure driving it ) or a carb jet ! Some may argue this but I worked in the fuels division at EXXON for 35 years andknow fuel and their works, I have measured the specific gravity of fuels with different ratios of oil mixed , and proved my point, the higher the oil ratio becomes the heavier and more dense the fuel becomes thus the more resistant is is passing through the system with the same fuel pressure and duration time the injector is open thus the motor will run LEANER at any thing higher than what the factory suggest and the processor is designed for...I confirmed this and achieved these concrete numbers with a fuel hydrometer...

Cheers,
Jay