Boatmad.com


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 27-10-2009, 01:10 PM   #1
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
setup P21

Hi,
I'm looking for the best 'overall performance' setup for my Phantom21.
I expect some setup troubles, so I want to gather already some info. I'll plan to do the testing next season.

current setup =
-no bow tank, unused fueltank in the front, 70L fueltank in the back. no info on the total weight yet
-dual cable, almost no slack
-Yamaha 200hp engine, actual hp rating could be upto 250hp according to Yamaha dealer. I simply do not know yet...
- standard gearcase and standard side waterpickups
- prop = 25P Mercury Marine Tempest Plus with ventholes (no plugs)
- 5,5inch (14cm) mechanical Powerlift
- @ vertical trim
=> horizontal distance back hull to gearcase nose = 36cm
=> vertical distance botom hull down to gearcase centerline = 8cm


I did a testdrive before I bought it. Promised speed was 110-115km/h. However a topspeed run was not possible because of the big seas. The prop cavitated getting the boat onto plane. Previous owner told me the engine was fitted even higher in the past, which made it quicker.

What should I try ? install prop venthole plugs ?
What's your opinion on the engine height ? should I lower it ?
Any advice is welcome.

Thx! T.
__________________

Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-01-2010, 12:40 PM   #2
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
Anyone ? I'm sure there should be a known default P21 setup to start with. I could use some advice from you Phantom experts.

I allready ordered solid venthole plugs. This should solve the excessive prop cavitation during hole shot.

I can't test my setup today due to the icy weather here in Belgium and due to the repaint job of my mid and gearbox. The short testdrive we did when I bought it prooved a wrong setup. The idea is to go out on the water with a good setup to start with and then improving it...

Kind regards,
T.
__________________

Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-01-2010, 07:46 PM   #3
Registered User
 
larby's Avatar
 
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
I'd start with the bullet of the gearbox (centreline) 2" below the bottom of the V due to you only having leisure water pickups. If the lifter gives 5.5" setback, you could probably manage 1" below the V, but keep an eye on water pressure. Do you have a water pressure gauge? If not, fit one, and keep an eye on it.
The higher you go (to a certain point), the faster it should be, but you'll lose some of the useability, it'll aerate/cavitate more etc. Just have a play around.

From what you've said it sounds like you've got a 25" leg on your engine, if that's the case the best gain in stability, handling and therefore speed you could get is to change to a 20" leg. Phantoms are known to run best with the engine on the transom, not on a lifter, so this would allow you to obtain the correct engine/prop height without it.

Not sure on props, 25 tempest sounds like a pretty good base. Make sure the engine is in it's powerband when flat out and not over/under revving. You'll always get some aeration (it's not actually cavitation) when taking off, thanks to the high height of the prop in the water. You'll have to play with those vent holes to see what works best for you.

Hope this helps,

James
__________________
facebook.com/jlinnovationgsy

https://www.jl-innovation.co.uk

The true test of a man is how he treats someone of absolutely no use to him.
larby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2010, 02:55 PM   #4
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
Thanks James,

This is helpfull info. Didn't know Phantoms are best setup with transom mount... this is very interesting to know ! I know a Bernico 19ft setup is ideal in either transom mount or 30cm setback. The last setup giving a bit more top end speed. For the Phantom 21ft a simply hadn't a clue...

Without my lift I fear the steering could touch the transom top if I'll trim/tilt it. Not to keen on cutting my transom for that. Same with installing the 20" leg. Seems like a classic Phantom problem hence the numerous transom cutouts I've seen. I'll start simple, keeping the lift and also my 25" leg.

Centerline gearbox now is >3" below bottom of the V. Too deep. I'll start setting it higher to only 1,5-2" and also install my ventholeplugs to get less aeration...

I don't have a water pressure gauge. How should I install this... any thread about this ?

Thanks,
T.
Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2010, 05:00 PM   #5
Registered User
 
Country: england
Location: the grim north
Occupation: robot
Cruising area: tyne

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the grim north
Posts: 915
21

bolt the engine to the back of the boat no lifter for better handling bin the 25"leg and get a 15 or a 20" . 15 if you want to cut the transom down for better handling. with a cle box you want the tip of the bullet about an inch below pad.
__________________
Speed costs weight so what do we cut off first
sinkunit0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2010, 05:27 PM   #6
Registered User
 
Peterjfinch's Avatar
 
Country: Spain
Location: Mallorca
Occupation: Retired
Interests: Boats, boats and boats
Boat name: Patriot and Forca
Boat make: Phantom 21. Falcon Bonito 36
Engines: 200hp Mariner. 2 x GM 6.5 Twin Turbo Diesels
Cruising area: The Med

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 716
Hi T, You might want to look here http://boatmad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7283 And some of my other threads. These lads have helped me to find the best setup for mine and I was a complete novice.

Best of luck

Pete

PS, if you want to sell the jackplate, let me know. I have all the speed I want but would like to tame the hole shot for skiing etc.
Peterjfinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2010, 11:34 PM   #7
Registered User
 
larby's Avatar
 
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toffy View Post
Thanks James,

This is helpfull info. Didn't know Phantoms are best setup with transom mount... this is very interesting to know ! I know a Bernico 19ft setup is ideal in either transom mount or 30cm setback. The last setup giving a bit more top end speed. For the Phantom 21ft a simply hadn't a clue...

Without my lift I fear the steering could touch the transom top if I'll trim/tilt it. Not to keen on cutting my transom for that. Same with installing the 20" leg. Seems like a classic Phantom problem hence the numerous transom cutouts I've seen. I'll start simple, keeping the lift and also my 25" leg.

Centerline gearbox now is >3" below bottom of the V. Too deep. I'll start setting it higher to only 1,5-2" and also install my ventholeplugs to get less aeration...

I don't have a water pressure gauge. How should I install this... any thread about this ?

Thanks,
T.
I can understand you wanting to keep the setup as is, changine the leg etc is a big step, and not that easy for a yam!
Easiest way for a pressure gauge is to just buy a yam one. This'll have a fitting that screws into your waterway, usually at the top of a head, then a small pipe that runs to a gauge at the dash, that's all. Doubt it'd cost much to have it fitted if you're not sure. Could save you a lot!!

James
__________________
facebook.com/jlinnovationgsy

https://www.jl-innovation.co.uk

The true test of a man is how he treats someone of absolutely no use to him.
larby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2010, 12:22 PM   #8
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
Thx people !

@Larby : I'll ask around for a genuine Yam water pressure gauge

@Peter : what speeds are you reachin' now with 200hp ? Really interested in this cause I have the same power. Having holeshot trouble while towing a skier with your transom mount setup ? So I surely must keep my lift then. I'm looking for best overall performance. Good top end speed and being able to tow a skier.

@all : the 20" leg is probably the best for overall performance. I'll start with my 25" and see what happens... installing a 20" seems indeed not that easy.

I've added 2 pictures of my engine. Should give you a visual idea of the current setup. These are pictures from when I bought it, as you can see the leg was in not that good shape... and I've been really busy cleaning and doin a repaint.
Can't wait for the summer and test...
Greets, T.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC06363 800x600.jpg
Views:	411
Size:	205.6 KB
ID:	23188   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC06355 800x600.jpg
Views:	379
Size:	223.8 KB
ID:	23189  
Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2010, 12:36 PM   #9
Registered User
 
Peterjfinch's Avatar
 
Country: Spain
Location: Mallorca
Occupation: Retired
Interests: Boats, boats and boats
Boat name: Patriot and Forca
Boat make: Phantom 21. Falcon Bonito 36
Engines: 200hp Mariner. 2 x GM 6.5 Twin Turbo Diesels
Cruising area: The Med

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 716
Hi T,

I´ve been getting 64 to 65 mph on gps. But, mine has a huge "belly" fuel tank and the weight is probably higher than most race boats. With the 25inch leg I had severe listing to port, when getting to higher speeds. Lifted engine and found the COG appeared too high and still verry twitchy. Changed the mid and everything eased off and getting to those speeds was much easier. My boat is not a race boat. I carry two large batteries, ski equipment, 2 anchors, spares and full tool kit. 6 life jackets and many other leisure items. Take all that out and I would expect nearer to 70MPH. The present setup works for mine. Also, I found the Yam race prop was good for speed but slipped a lot. Now I have a trophy 4 blade and it´s a good all round prop.

If you check the various threads I have started, you will find a host of information, that I asked for and found very helpful.

All the best.

Pete
Peterjfinch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2010, 09:07 PM   #10
Registered User
 
dirtydutch's Avatar
 
Country: holland
Location: ansterdam
Occupation: operator
Interests: boating
Boat make: phantom 21
Engines: optimax 225
Cruising area: all over

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ansterdam
Posts: 46
is nothing wrong with the setup as it is , you wil get enough water in te intake ,

per inch setback water rises 0.2 inches so 6inch the water comes up 1.2 inch

but if you want to run it with skier or full of people , you should lower it a little . for you wil have more blowouts on holeshot, stil depends on prop but 4 blade wil give you less speed

the fastest standart prop is by far the mercury fury . i will never run a tempest again ,
dirtydutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2010, 11:53 AM   #11
Registered User
 
The Docta's Avatar
 
Country: UK
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Occupation: Sales Director
Interests: My Boat of course
Boat make: Extreme 21
Engines: Merc V8
Cruising area: Solent

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Posts: 587
Is that motor defo an xl?

I'd have thought you'd struggle to get a 25" motor so the bullet is less than 3" below the V even with a lifter?

When my old Ring had an XL (on a bracket), the motor was so far down that when trimmed in on the trailor, the skeg would touch the floor!
__________________
The Docta
The Docta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2010, 01:07 PM   #12
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
It's a 20" leg
Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2010, 01:50 PM   #13
Registered User
 
The Docta's Avatar
 
Country: UK
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Occupation: Sales Director
Interests: My Boat of course
Boat make: Extreme 21
Engines: Merc V8
Cruising area: Solent

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Coventry (but from Lee on Solent)
Posts: 587
Thought so!

From what I understand some have had better results with lifters and others worse.

Its all trial and error so I would just stick with what you have got for now and play around with props. If you cant get it right you can then get rid of the lifter.

Defo get a pressure gauge though if your gonna lift it up.

We used to run the old merc on R18 quite high (just piercing surface) without low water pick ups but the top pick up holes were blocked off.
__________________
The Docta
The Docta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2010, 10:13 PM   #14
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
Hi all, a small update :

We did a first testrun a few weeks ago. We installed solid venthole plugs on the prop and took her out. Great top end speed and acceleration.
We saw a unexpected 119kmh = 74mph on gps and are very pleased with that.

There is room for more, but she is a very scary ride above 65mph as she chinewalks. We don't have foot throttle, nor do we have trim buttons on the steering wheel. I must admit it feels unsafe. I'm not used to driving a boat with only one hand on the steering wheel and the other one on the controller.

There isn't a lot of spray behind the boat and I think the hull is not enough bow-up. As said she isn't stable enough at high speeds and I don't wanna risk further trimming... I'll consider new foot throttle and trim buttons. In the meantime, tips to improve on stability are welcome. Could just changing to another prop allready make a difference ?? We now have a Tempest Plus 25P, which is considered a good quality bow lift prop.

I have a 18Mb vid of our testrun. Can I put this up here ? Not to keen on putting it on Youtube you see...

Thanks!
T.
Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2011, 04:46 PM   #15
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
I've just put this vid on youtoube...
Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2011, 05:40 PM   #16
Registered User
 
Burty's Avatar
 
Country: UK
Location: Weston Super Mare
Occupation: Electrical Engineer

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Weston Super Mare
Posts: 6,351
Send a message via AIM to Burty
looks like you got it running nicely dude
Burty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2011, 06:20 PM   #17
Registered User
 
larby's Avatar
 
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
Indeed, looks very good!

Now we just need to help with your taste in music

James
__________________
facebook.com/jlinnovationgsy

https://www.jl-innovation.co.uk

The true test of a man is how he treats someone of absolutely no use to him.
larby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 09:51 AM   #18
Registered User
 
Toffy's Avatar
 
Country: Belgium
Location: near Ghent
Occupation: engineer
Interests: boating, wakeboarding, snowboarding, fitness
Boat name: Outlaw
Boat make: Phantom 21ft
Engines: Yamaha 200hp
Cruising area: Zele / Kanaal Gent-Terneuzen

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: near Ghent
Posts: 473
thx !
Toffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2011, 07:25 PM   #19
Registered User
 
NorwegianBoater's Avatar
 
Country: Norway
Location: Oslo, Aberdeen
Occupation: Time
Interests: a lot...
Boat make: Gilbert 22 Offshore Edition
Engines: Merc
Cruising area: Oslofjord-Sweden-Denmark

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oslo, Aberdeen
Posts: 232
Thumbs up

Lookin good Impressed with your speed! As Larby said, you should get a water preassure gauge, but you should also get a water temp gauge. Reason why is because with only the water preassure gauge you can get a false reading because of air in the system therefore false security.. Does not cost much and are easy to install. Especially considering a blown block.
There is also a new Gauge; the Lvorsi raw water flow system. Eliminates the need for both the others. livorsi.com Maybe worth considering depending on how much space you have on your dash etc..
Good luck
__________________

__________________
If anybody knows how to get in touch with Powertran pls pm me
NorwegianBoater is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×