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22-02-2009, 08:17 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
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Fair points guys, as you say - Geoff seemed to have her set up pretty well!
I'm going to use the tie bars that came with the engines then. They were set up with both front and rear, front on the steering arms, rear on little wing plates. I didn't think they looked substantial enough but i'll see how they do and upgrade if necessary. They survived years of ski racing on a P25 so must do the job i guess!
Cheers, James
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22-02-2009, 08:27 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Country: uk
Location: devon
Occupation: costruction
Interests: power boats
Boat name: smokin aces
Boat make: x cat
Engines: mercs
Cruising area: lyme bay
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: devon
Posts: 389
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when i re engined my p28 i tried the front tie bar, on rough trip the bar bent,boat went all over the place ,went over on left side then right ,luckily not going to fast!then went for larger bar and better rose joints,lasted a while then the bolts pulled out luckily it just held together again a fairly nasty experience the boat heaves over!so re tapped and drilled with larger bolts,yet again same result pulled out the bolts, so went for rear tie bar no probs then!
my cat has marine machine steering and rear tie bar,works well wouldnt want to have the tie bar go on the cat dont think it would have a good outcome with the cat
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22-02-2009, 08:30 PM
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#23
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larby
I'm going to use the tie bars that came with the engines then. They were set up with both front and rear, front on the steering arms, rear on little wing plates.
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I wouldn't do that. Matt brushed on it, but to be more precise, if the motors are inadvertently trimmed by different amounts, it will all fight itself, and something will have to give. (or should I say, bend or break) Basically, if they're trimmed differently, for the motors to remain on the same centres, the tie bars would need to get longer (which of course they can't), the forces involved are massive, you could even damage the structures in the back of the boat if it happened..
Front, OR rear, not both. I wouldn't even consider front, you're not going to be running it on the intracostal, you're in the Ocean.
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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22-02-2009, 08:41 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
I wouldn't do that. Matt brushed on it, but to be more precise, if the motors are inadvertently trimmed by different amounts, it will all fight itself, and something will have to give.(or should I say, bend or break) front, OR rear, not both. I wouldn't even consider front, you're not going to be running it on the intracostal, you're in the Ocean.
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Hmmm, funny you and matt say that. I should probably admit that one of the tie bars got broken somehow by the last owner....
Seeing as i don't really want to wear her as a hat, maybe i should just shut up and do what everyone thinks for once then and use just the rear bar. All who agree say aye!......
James
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22-02-2009, 08:47 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larby
Hmmm, funny you and matt say that. I should probably admit that one of the tie bars got broken somehow by the last owner....
Seeing as i don't really want to wear her as a hat, maybe i should just shut up and do what everyone thinks for once then and use just the rear bar. All who agree say aye!......
James
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As my posts above - rig the boat the same way as the original owner.
Go thru the Fish Files and see how much success he had with it.
I think Geoff nearly beat Neil Holmes one day - but I suspect my memory is fading.
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22-02-2009, 09:15 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Country: uk
Location: southampton'ish
Occupation: builder
Boat make: Mariah
Engines: volvo 4.3
Cruising area: hatchet pond
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: southampton'ish
Posts: 497
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here's a question
how far apart are your motors?
the reason i ask is that you say that the original tie bar is broken!
if your motors are to far apart it would have to be a strong peice of steel
to stop the flex.
a lot of big twin rigs where the motors are spaced apart and not side by side have a twin steering setup and dont rely on tie bars
yes i know its a totaly diferent type of boat but you get the point
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22-02-2009, 09:16 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Country: uk
Location: southampton'ish
Occupation: builder
Boat make: Mariah
Engines: volvo 4.3
Cruising area: hatchet pond
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: southampton'ish
Posts: 497
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some reason the pic didn't go thro!
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22-02-2009, 09:27 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy B
some reason the pic didn't go thro!
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and
Probably the reason that the picture didn't go up first time had something to do with your spell checker.
I suspect that the steering system on that boat and Larby's cat are somewhat different.
All said, find the owner of that boat and get him to email Neil McGrigor for 2012.
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22-02-2009, 09:33 PM
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#29
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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The motors on the Puma will be running 'surface', or very close to it, the props will be trying VERY hard to walk the motors apart (paddle wheel), rear tie bar on wing plates is the way to go, especialy as it leaves/enters the water in the chop. Rear bars also have a much better mechanical advantage to keep the motors in check, as they're way behind the steering pivot, whereas the front mounted ones are much closer, increasing the loading on them.
Set it up another way at your peril.
You can't even nearly compare that fishing boat.
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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22-02-2009, 09:35 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Country: uk
Location: southampton'ish
Occupation: builder
Boat make: Mariah
Engines: volvo 4.3
Cruising area: hatchet pond
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: southampton'ish
Posts: 497
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its not the spell checker thats the problem
its all the empty bottles of beer around the keyboard
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22-02-2009, 09:37 PM
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#31
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Registered User
Country: uk
Location: southampton'ish
Occupation: builder
Boat make: Mariah
Engines: volvo 4.3
Cruising area: hatchet pond
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: southampton'ish
Posts: 497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
The motors on the Puma will be running 'surface', or very close to it, the props will be trying VERY hard to walk the motors apart (paddle wheel), rear tie bar on wing plates is the way to go, especialy as it leaves/enters the water in the chop. Set it up another way at your peril.
You can't even nearly compare that fishing boat.
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i bow to your greater knowledge,
it was just an observation.
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22-02-2009, 09:45 PM
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#32
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy B
i bow to your greater knowledge,
it was just an observation.
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Andy, sorry, it wasn't supposed to sound so dismisive., and was really aimed at Larby. (don't wanna see him make anything dangerous)
You're right to keep an open mind and always consider all options.
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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22-02-2009, 09:50 PM
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#33
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Andy, sorry, it wasn't supposed to sound so dismisive., and was really aimed at Larby. (don't wanna see him make anything dangerous)
You're right to keep an open mind and always consider all options.
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Thought it was a good post - Just hope Larby talks to Geoff and Jo
(two of the most decent blokes in the sport)
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22-02-2009, 09:51 PM
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#34
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Registered User
Country: uk
Location: southampton'ish
Occupation: builder
Boat make: Mariah
Engines: volvo 4.3
Cruising area: hatchet pond
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: southampton'ish
Posts: 497
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absolutly no offence taken jon
i know some things and enjoy learning about the other things,
safty at sea is top and i'd rather that i and people who read this learn this way and not the hard way
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22-02-2009, 10:42 PM
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#35
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
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Andy - The cat is running twin steering already, no way i'd rely on just one cable!
Jon/Ciao/Matt - I'm definately going with your advice. As i said before, i don't mean to sound like i'm trying to disagree with people in the thread, i just like to explore every possible angle so once i come to a conclusion, i know why it's the right one.
The last thing i want to do is build the cat wrongly, it's not just my life i'm playing with here so i need to know she's safe. I've seen what can happen when things go even slightly wrong at speed in a cat!
I'm going to take the wingplates to my old work (an engineering workshop) and get a thicker set made, i've got to have a tie bar made to the correct length for the cat anyhoo. As you've all agreed, that way i know it's done right. Going by the photos i have, Geoff used to run twin ride glide, so that should be easily good enough at the steering end for me
Thanks for such a good discussion on the subject guys,
Cheers, James
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22-02-2009, 11:01 PM
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#36
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larby
Andy - The cat is running twin steering already, no way i'd rely on just one cable!
Jon/Ciao/Matt - I'm definately going with your advice. As i said before, i don't mean to sound like i'm trying to disagree with people in the thread, i just like to explore every possible angle so once i come to a conclusion, i know why it's the right one.
The last thing i want to do is build the cat wrongly, it's not just my life i'm playing with here so i need to know she's safe. I've seen what can happen when things go even slightly wrong at speed in a cat!
I'm going to take the wingplates to my old work (an engineering workshop) and get a thicker set made, i've got to have a tie bar made to the correct length for the cat anyhoo. As you've all agreed, that way i know it's done right. Going by the photos i have, Geoff used to run twin ride glide, so that should be easily good enough at the steering end for me
Thanks for such a good discussion on the subject guys,
Cheers, James
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One of the worst steering related problems I ever saw was in your Manor.
Peter Wilson was racing a wooden Campbell Cat in the 1986 worlds.
Steering "let go" and turned the race boat over.
Ask him in the morning how that felt. (White hair, lots of papers under his arm, walking a dog)
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22-02-2009, 11:22 PM
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,891
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Don't listen to me, I'm just a tyre kicker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by larby
Jon/Ciao/Matt - I'm definately going with your advice. As i said before, i don't mean to sound like i'm trying to disagree with people in the thread, i just like to explore every possible angle so once i come to a conclusion, i know why it's the right one.
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22-02-2009, 11:28 PM
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#38
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Don't listen to me, I'm just a tyre kicker.
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I know, i wouldn't listen to you lot anyway, it's not like you're regulars here or anything! I mean, really, what do you bring to this forum
James
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22-02-2009, 11:39 PM
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#39
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larby
I know, i wouldn't listen to you lot anyway, it's not like you're regulars here or anything! I mean, really, what do you bring to this forum
James
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I have a car booked after the BPRC Ball to take me to the AYC to watch BluFin and Pash do their stuff in the Midas.
Fingers crossed Jon Hedges will win the race overall.
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22-02-2009, 11:47 PM
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#40
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
Occupation: Engineering
Boat make: None, boo!
Engines: Turbines mainly!
Cruising area: The inside of my workshop!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciao
I have a car booked after the BPRC Ball to take me to the AYC to watch BluFin and Pash do their stuff in the Midas.
Fingers crossed Jon Hedges will win the race overall.
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Slightly random??
I was joking in my previous post by the way!
James
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