3B Revival 2011

[jonp]

Just a thought. Everyone is eyeing for affordable racing (me too, family man and all ;-D) but the argument n Sweden always seems to be that older, cheaper engines is the only solution. But what if you think the other way around. A new EPA engine might be quite expensive to purchase but on the other hand it is much cheaper to run. It does not need the same maintenance and it takes less oil and fuel. I've been calculating for my own racing in Swedish national class V150 (vee bottoms and 150 hp engines) and on the bottom line it always ends more affordable if I purchase a new or next to new EPA engine.

[Foolish]

Originally Posted by jonp

But what if you think the other way around. A new EPA engine might be quite expensive to purchase but on the other hand it is much cheaper to run. It does not need the same maintenance and it takes less oil and fuel..

i thought that way initially but when i saw a big hole in Matts gearbox at Torquay last year i soon changed my mind, luckily he managed to sort it and make the final in Cowes but its not something that is going to be avaiable at short notice with buying new for £loads as the only option , whereas when the 90 box blew at littlehampton we sourced a secondhand one the next day for a £few and rebuilt it one evening after work

[jonp]

Originally Posted by Foolish

i thought that way initially but when i saw a big hole in Matts gearbox at Torquay last year i soon changed my mind, luckily he managed to sort it and make the final in Cowes but its not something that is going to be avaiable at short notice with buying new for £loads as the only option , whereas when the 90 box blew at littlehampton we sourced a secondhand one the next day for a £few and rebuilt it one evening after work

Good argument.... BUT! How was it when the Yamaha 90 was brand new to the market? You can not rely on used ones beeing available for all eternity, especially now when production of the Yamaha 90 is no more ;-)

I do not want to start an argument here, but it seems you have the same problem in UK as here in Sweden. People are afraid of changes. They ask for impovement but are not prepared to evolve.

[Foolish]

Originally Posted by jonp

Good argument.... BUT! How was it when the Yamaha 90 was brand new to the market? You can not rely on used ones beeing available for all eternity, especially now when production of the Yamaha 90 is no more ;-)

I do not want to start an argument here, but it seems you have the same problem in UK as here in Sweden. People are afraid of changes. They ask for impovement but are not prepared to evolve.

I "DO" agree with you and know that things have to evolve, i fully accept that there is no future in the old motors ( long term ) but for the next year or two believe that they should still run against other 90's to allow new entrants who have boats ready the chance to try and race without the much higher financial commitment needed with a new boat and motor,

as i said earlier there are now at least 6 90hp 3B boats ready to race next year and i would be a shame to scare them of by expecting them to compete directly against 115HO's rather than along side them .... JMHO

[Blue mist]

Originally Posted by Foolish

I "DO" agree with you and know that things have to evolve, i fully accept that there is no future in the old motors ( long term ) but for the next year or two believe that they should still run against other 90's to allow new entrants who have boats ready the chance to try and race without the much higher financial commitment needed with a new boat and motor,

as i said earlier there are now at least 6 90hp 3B boats ready to race next year and i would be a shame to scare them of by expecting them to compete directly against 115HO's rather than along side them .... JMHO

Good post, just as I see it !

[jonp]

Originally Posted by Foolish

I "DO" agree with you and know that things have to evolve, i fully accept that there is no future in the old motors ( long term ) but for the next year or two believe that they should still run against other 90's to allow new entrants who have boats ready the chance to try and race without the much higher financial commitment needed with a new boat and motor,

as i said earlier there are now at least 6 90hp 3B boats ready to race next year and i would be a shame to scare them of by expecting them to compete directly against 115HO's rather than along side them .... JMHO

I totally agree with you that we should not kill of the older engines right away, it has to happen step by step.

What is the scare of competing against modern engines? The old Yamaha 90 is often just as strong as the new 115 HO's. And lighter also. I have not yet seen an EPA-boat go faster than top three of the "old" 3B's.

My opinion is that the changes has to be over a period of maybe 5 years. One idea we have had was to have a ladder were for each year the older engines have to put extra weight until the day when EPA becomes the preferred choice. Someone has to start buying the new EPA-engines if they ever should become available as affordable second hand engines, therefore we have to find ways to make them attractive, hence give them performance advantages. In a competetive scene as racing is that is the only way to go.

[JBP]

Originally Posted by jonp

I totally agree with you that we should not kill of the older engines right away, it has to happen step by step.

What is the scare of competing against modern engines? The old Yamaha 90 is often just as strong as the new 115 HO's. And lighter also. I have not yet seen an EPA-boat go faster than top three of the "old" 3B's.

My opinion is that the changes has to be over a period of maybe 5 years. One idea we have had was to have a ladder were for each year the older engines have to put extra weight until the day when EPA becomes the preferred choice. Someone has to start buying the new EPA-engines if they ever should become available as affordable second hand engines, therefore we have to find ways to make them attractive, hence give them performance advantages. In a competetive scene as racing is that is the only way to go.

Back in 2004 when the original 1L class (60hp Merc + 16'phantoms) was introduced for the juniors to progress onto the EPA(4 stroke) route was taken and since then ALL new series our club have promoted has taken the EPA route and with the 2011 season in sight it looks to be paying off with approx. 10 in line to race in our E1500 class (150HO ETEC). As posted earlier the EPA route is moving up to the old 2stroke 25HP as they are like gold dust so to find spares for repair is like the 90yams...... and to note another point the EPA engines are fuel/oil economic and with exception of physical damage (can happen anywhere) they also appear to be soild and reliable. oh and with BRP support can be PDI'd to check the settings etc

It is good to hear that the 3b fleet looks good for 2011 and would personally agree a transition on power needs to be sorted now to allow the future changes to be made without putting people off.

[OCRDA]

But WHY 115 epa ?? what was wrong with sticking to 1.3 ltr 90hp for epa ??
Understandable to have CC difference but HP is HP 90Carbed 2 stroke = 90 Epa.
and as for having 1750cc & 115hp wel that is just rediculous.

Bob

[jonp]

Originally Posted by OCRDA

But WHY 115 epa ?? what was wrong with sticking to 1.3 ltr 90hp for epa ??
Understandable to have CC difference but HP is HP 90Carbed 2 stroke = 90 Epa.
and as for having 1750cc & 115hp wel that is just rediculous.

Bob

I've got no other answer other than that UIM probably were afraid that the drop in performance would put people of. Therefore they raised the HP so that performance would be more similar to old blueprinted 90 hp. A Yamaha 90 correctly blueprinted according to UIM homologation puts out well above 110 hp and is significantly lighter hence better performance.

[Downhilldai]

Originally Posted by jonp

A Yamaha 90 correctly blueprinted according to UIM homologation puts out well above 110 hp

At what cost?

In the old days a 3B competitor with a bit of spare dosh had the option of 'buying' power by going down the blueprint route, but now, they can also consider the EPA (115 HO) option.

Is there much difference?

[jonp]

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

At what cost?

In the old days a 3B competitor with a bit of spare dosh had the option of 'buying' power by going down the blueprint route, but now, they can also consider the EPA (115 HO) option.

Is there much difference?

The difference will probably be that the old Yamaha always will be faster due to less weight, equal power and no rev limiter.

Another option is to let the first year be a test year. If the EPAs are faster, give them extra weight.

I'm do not want to start a fight here, I'm only interested in british offshore racing coming back to form and also the rescue of international 3B were UK, Sweden, Norway and Finland are the "Big 4" and needs responsability!

Sorry if I sound provocative, My english sunt good and my enthusiasm is infinite ;-)

[Adam]

I think the engines have been pretty well discussed (and no doubt will be more) - and as suggested the logical way is to run both the old and new engines, have some separate prizes too. But the rules are written and sooner or later the old non epa engines will be obsolete etc. Also for any class to grow and have a long term future you have to have the option of being able to buy a new engine.

Other areas to consider:
- What courses do people want to run? In my opinion we still need to keep an offshore element to the class and keep navigation as a skill. Also good to mix it up with a few shorter laps.
- What can be done to promote the class?

[Pennpromo]

So through the wonders of Ebay I have acquired the first Shakespeare 1.3L Cat.
For those in the know this was the one sat on the factory roof for about ten years.
It needs a little work, it is covered in brickdust and has a few holes. It seems very light indeed, two of us picked it up. All Kevlar construction, very dry lay up. Nice little compression poles from tunnel to deck.
Does anyone know why this one was junked in favour of the Mk2 ? I am assuming that it was too light ? Construction is very remeniscent of an Argo.
So who has an old Yammy 90 spare ?
Could even see me race it- pigs might fly ...
Although I would prefer my old Frode 19 !

[Scand]

Originally Posted by Pennpromo

Although I would prefer my old Frode 19 !

here is a cheap 21: http://bat.autodb.no/autodb/view.wa2...ied=1280369876

[Ciao]

Originally Posted by Pennpromo

So through the wonders of Ebay I have acquired the first Shakespeare 1.3L Cat.
For those in the know this was the one sat on the factory roof for about ten years.
It needs a little work, it is covered in brickdust and has a few holes. It seems very light indeed, two of us picked it up. All Kevlar construction, very dry lay up. Nice little compression poles from tunnel to deck.
Does anyone know why this one was junked in favour of the Mk2 ? I am assuming that it was too light ? Construction is very remeniscent of an Argo.
So who has an old Yammy 90 spare ?
Could even see me race it- pigs might fly ...
Although I would prefer my old Frode 19 !

I bet Mrs WP dreads the courier man knocking on the door of Pennpromo Mansions - Oh no! What on earth has he purchased on line now!

[Pennpromo]

Originally Posted by Ciao

I bet Mrs WP dreads the courier man knocking on the door of Pennpromo Mansions - Oh no! What on earth has he purchased on line now!

It is a bit of an addiction ! She is of course very tolerant ...
Cowes took a little tricky negotiation !

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Pennpromo

Could even see me race it- pigs might fly ...
Although I would prefer my old Frode 19 !

So why didn't you buy it?

[Pennpromo]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

So why didn't you buy it?

Because I procrastinated for too long ! Looking at the Cat hull I have it is incredibly light, I would guess under 200KG, all seems a bit thin !!

[Foolish]

Originally Posted by Adam

Other areas to consider:
- What courses do people want to run? In my opinion we still need to keep an offshore element to the class and keep navigation as a skill. Also good to mix it up with a few shorter laps.
- What can be done to promote the class?

When talking with Sheena last week it was suggested that there could be a Short course race similar to current OCR followed by a longer Offshore race with class 3 giving all boats equal advantages / disadvantages

[OCRDA]

Originally Posted by Foolish

When talking with Sheena last week it was suggested that there could be a Short course race similar to current OCR followed by a longer Offshore race with class 3 giving all boats equal advantages / disadvantages

Thats easy then !! Just race OCR !! unfortunately the navigation argument is out unless you can find a way to ban GPS !!