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Old 18-03-2009, 11:43 PM   #21
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mmmmmmm think so

i guess i'll have to supply the bacon sarnies sunday morning then (along with the complimentary tea and cakes )
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Old 18-03-2009, 11:46 PM   #22
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i guess i'll have to supply the bacon sarnies sunday morning then (along with the complimentary tea and cakes )
And shed loads of Coffffeeeee

Actually Mrs P and Mrs F might be in Tow so we will be on our best behaviour as usual
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Old 19-03-2009, 09:55 AM   #23
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Mr Williams, the whole point of a forum is for individuals to be able to express their opinions in a free environment without recourse, hence the use of tags as names. I note the RYA offshore calendar for 2009 as at 05.03.09 lists the afforementioned avent as being a SEPA taster Sat and a SEPA basic Sun but whether it be a SEPA or AYC event is irrelevant the point I was trying to make is that powerboat racing is a declining sport and by restricting the people who are able to get on the water from local events is not going to help this! You used the word misinformed and this shows in your comment about UKFFORC racing under the Thunder banner - this is certainly not the case with both clubs retaining their own identities. They will be hosting joint events to benefit both clubs and hopefully the sport as a whole. If something isn't done then all that will be left is the old dinosaurs like HasBeen who have nothing better to do with their time than poke fun at the youngsters who are still enthusiastic enough to care. For the record I am not from the UKFF camp or any other camp for that matter - much further up the tree!
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Old 19-03-2009, 10:26 AM   #24
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I think the easiest thing to do here is give me a call and I will explain over the phone in more detail AYC rules, why they are in place and why they have remained unchanged for so many years and why they will not be changed this year.

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Old 19-03-2009, 10:40 AM   #25
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Looking at it from the sidelines what you have is a single engine (manufacture) set class. It’s just a simple mismatch between those fixed class rules & the CC vs length that is a requirement for this event and some other classes in general.
No great master plot just an anomaly when you try to use a fixed model / HP & try to match it with CC for another class of racing for which it was not intended, it will throw you some curves along the way.

The same also would apply to a 150 Honda in this example.
Edit: also a P21 or R21 with a 200XS
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Old 19-03-2009, 10:49 AM   #26
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why do people like lil devil have to hide their identity?? or are they just sh_t stirrers???
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Old 19-03-2009, 04:11 PM   #27
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Because Rhino it isn't about me, it is the points I am trying to raise that matter. Sh_t stirring does not interest me nor does petty bitching. I've had my say, lets just hope in 10, 20 years time I can't come back and say do you remember the sport powerboat racing that used to be!
BluFin, you hit the nail on the head. It is boat length/hp versus CC's thats causing the issue but since when did we run classes by CC?
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Old 19-03-2009, 05:11 PM   #28
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Again not an easy one cc ... some classes since about 1965 others more recent some both i.e class IV used to be HP but then went to cc & OCR, some have only ever been HP .................clear as mud
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Old 19-03-2009, 05:20 PM   #29
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i guess i'll have to supply the bacon sarnies sunday morning then (along with the complimentary tea and cakes )
The ladies at AYC do a cracking Breakfast at very reasonable prices.
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Old 19-03-2009, 05:45 PM   #30
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I would like to put my 2 pence in on this matter, not to take side just to maybe add some constructive thoughts.

As some one has stated, CC and HP can not be cross referenced any more as 3 or more engine HP ratings can be obtained by one block.

As far as limiting engines to 2500cc. i must put in that a 2.6ltr evinrude with a 150 hp rating will be nowhere near as fast as a 200hp carbed merc or a 2.5 EFI as these are well over 200hp.
I dont think there will be any stability problems either as any badly set up boat can cause problems. 1.3, 1.8,2.0, or larger. over the years all these classes have seen boats stuff, flip or roll. that is racing.
i think an honest speed rating for OCR spec boats with this set up would be 70-75 mph. these boats were faster with an XR2.
The whole thing about OCR spec boats with large cc engines were borne out of the fear of 2.5 efi performance. this will simlpy not happen.
If there was any official RYA ruling on this i think it would be a good point to post it somewhere on the forum as i was once told (true or not)that this was mostly a knee jerk reaction by some one and scare mongering when the XR2 production ceased.
Engine technology has moved on and over sport/ hobby must move with the times.

again i am not looking for agressive responses i just think it is a valid point.
all the best.

looking forward to the season
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Old 19-03-2009, 06:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
I would like to put my 2 pence in on this matter, not to take side just to maybe add some constructive thoughts.

As some one has stated, CC and HP can not be cross referenced any more as 3 or more engine HP ratings can be obtained by one block.

As far as limiting engines to 2500cc. i must put in that a 2.6ltr evinrude with a 150 hp rating will be nowhere near as fast as a 200hp carbed merc or a 2.5 EFI as these are well over 200hp.
I dont think there will be any stability problems either as any badly set up boat can cause problems. 1.3, 1.8,2.0, or larger. over the years all these classes have seen boats stuff, flip or roll. that is racing.
i think an honest speed rating for OCR spec boats with this set up would be 70-75 mph. these boats were faster with an XR2.
The whole thing about OCR spec boats with large cc engines were borne out of the fear of 2.5 efi performance. this will simlpy not happen.
If there was any official RYA ruling on this i think it would be a good point to post it somewhere on the forum as i was once told (true or not)that this was mostly a knee jerk reaction by some one and scare mongering when the XR2 production ceased.
Engine technology has moved on and over sport/ hobby must move with the times.

again i am not looking for agressive responses i just think it is a valid point.
all the best.

looking forward to the season
Good points !! Except that CC is the problem, as "there is no substitute for CC" (as Gordon Council once said) This is where the vast amounts of Torque come from !! A 2ltr 200hp engine would be comparatively safer than a 2.5ltr 200hp engine !! This is where the CC limits came from !! Unfortunately as you quite rightly say a 2.5ltr 150 may be fairly safe, until it is increased to 200hp !! therefore by limiting to 2ltr everything stays safe.
When 2ltr was first introduced to OCR in 1990 I argued that we should just go to 200hp. This proposal was flatly refused stating that bigger engines would have far too much Torque !! PLEASE take some advice from the "Dinasaurs" BEFORE someone gets hurt !!

As far as I am aware the decisions have been made !! Ignoring the recomendations from the ORC !

I have no doubt that someone will be watching closely during the probationary period of this bizzarre class we will have to wait and see who is right and who is wrong !! I hope for all concerned that I am indeed wrong !!
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Old 19-03-2009, 06:45 PM   #32
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what amazes me is that the rules have been in place for a long time so why not rig your boat with an engine that fits the rules.If you want the rules changed then make a proposal for a rule change in the following year and let the powers to be decide.But until a rule has been changed you have to run by whats in print.Or is this just to let someone have a hp advantage.If that is the case then an inexperienced driver with more hp than he is used to is a danger to his self an to the other drivers that he is trying to impress
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Old 19-03-2009, 09:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Engine technology has moved on and over sport/ hobby must move with the times.
FWIW. That is quite a valid statement, Boats have got longer & longer with the power unit changes over the years.
Thing is not to lose sight of the fact this is a shakedown days fun not the national finals. the class structure on the day isn't a national one, there are a few anomalies, some of which will cause some to be ineligible & some uneven balances within classes but it's about blowing the cobwebs out & getting home in one piece.

AYC is a rocking place, along with UKFFORC both so very genuine, with good guys all around. Leave the politics to the knobs at Westminster. (read that as Scottish assembly if your Gazza)
If you can’t race come down & take the pi*s out of Pash & I, we’ll do our best to give you lots of material to work with. I reckon there could even be some cakes......................
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Old 20-03-2009, 07:41 PM   #34
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Point taken about torque. but i still dont believe that the new breed of engines will produce the same torque level's as an EFI or for that matter a 2.5 carbed. if they do, the difference over 100 cc's will be so minimal i don't think it will matter.
I think there is something to be had out of this set up but as ever the organisers have flown into this making statements with out doing the reserch and rule book first.

All the best guys.
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Old 20-03-2009, 10:39 PM   #35
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Point taken about torque. but i still dont believe that the new breed of engines will produce the same torque level's as an EFI or for that matter a 2.5 carbed. if they do, the difference over 100 cc's will be so minimal i don't think it will matter.
I think there is something to be had out of this set up but as ever the organisers have flown into this making statements with out doing the reserch and rule book first.

All the best guys.
As experienced racers and race organisers we don't 'fly into making decisions'.
We probably spent far too many hours discussing and considering the E150 class, including several meetings with UKFFORC representatives, before deciding that it wasn't for us.
From late 2008, SEPA, OCRDA and the RYA have made muliple requests to UKFFORC to submit their E150 proposals for consideration and support but nothing has ever been recieved.
From an RYA perspective, this new class will be considered under it's experimental status for 2009, including safety, marketabilty, accessability and popularity.
If it scores well, we will welcome and support a new class.
Good Luck to it but as Rhino says "do it properly".
As far as cc limits are concerned, there must always be a cut off limit, whatever that is. Being only 89cc over is not a valid argument to get past scrutineering, otherwise it just goes on and on,
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Old 21-03-2009, 11:32 AM   #36
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I would just like to say that my post was not directed at your club so my appologies if it came across that way.
With the CC limit, new engines are all going to to be larger as you cannot get the performance in lower cc units.
optimax, yamaha hpdi, Etec/ficht, honda and so on. are all 2500+.
these will be the outfits that your everyday man will have on his skiboat in the very near future.
if you want these men and women to come across into basic racing then you simply have to let them in. I was watching a racing video from a few years ago and the basic fleet were all running 200hp and efis on phantoms. the northern series were well known for this with very few problems in conrast to the outfits.
The 150 ski racing class dont seem to be having problems either.
All the best
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Old 21-03-2009, 06:20 PM   #37
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From late 2008, SEPA, OCRDA and the RYA have made muliple requests to UKFFORC to submit their E150 proposals for consideration and support but nothing has ever been recieved.
Well the National Authority have received the proposals some 3 weeks ago as like everyone else rule amendments had to be completed for PB1 submission. As we offer classes for all ages we cannot just issue them without getting them as right as possible.

As for the Basic Shakedown race, which is where it all started, we have supported this event over the past 6years and can say it is one of the best you can ever get, though last years snow was a bit of a suprise.
I hope you have a great weekend and the powerboat racing comunity return in their masses and support both clubs in their aims. Well done.
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Old 23-03-2009, 12:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
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what amazes me is that the rules have been in place for a long time so why not rig your boat with an engine that fits the rules.If you want the rules changed then make a proposal for a rule change in the following year and let the powers to be decide.But until a rule has been changed you have to run by whats in print.Or is this just to let someone have a hp advantage.If that is the case then an inexperienced driver with more hp than he is used to is a danger to his self an to the other drivers that he is trying to impress
Exactly Brian perhaps that’s what wave been doing wrong all these years! Let’s just keep banging on bigger engines and making our own classes instead of support ones that are in place! Especially new classes that are so close to existing ones! Support the ones that are there, earn some credability and if you would like to change then put it forward! Experiance i believe would be one of the most important isues! Driving, the boats design rigging, and set up and all should be done first before it’s even considered even as an experimental class! Trials should be done by extremely experienced racers engineers and so forth! I am not a dinosaur its safety that we all strive for! I feel that there is plenty of classes out there, yes maybe some changes are needed, support definitely, but instead of wasting time developing new ones (the sport is on it ass) lets build up what is there lets all work together lets get the numbers and the spectacle of powerboat racing going again then think about change!

Brian fancy entering my Vito in next weeks formula one!!!!!! I rest my case!
Lance that’s my name and that’s my opinion and will happily discuss anything about racing openly and if requested would also get involved in the future with any development work on new classes there's nothing wrong with it but it takes time and i believe that this is not the time.
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Old 23-03-2009, 02:07 PM   #39
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I think that there are enough problems with racing at the mo, so I have an idea It may not be liked The 'muster area' All users should have to use their names, real names (it’s your opinions stand up for yourself!)And should have to have a current race license or be a registered official to apply posts, all other users can still read but not post! We need to support racing and make this a happy family that others would want to join and not look on here and think that we are a bunch of egotistic, no alls and legends in our own bathroom cabinets!

Rules are there, stick by them!
Classes are there, fit in them
Officials are there, listen to them
Then racing will be there, HAVE FUN!
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Old 23-03-2009, 02:55 PM   #40
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real names is always a good idea. closed forum i think will make it a very quiet area in time,and possibly make powerboat racing feel even more like a closed shop to an outsider
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