Cowes 2011 update

[biffer]

i think that this will be the end of true historic boats racing this classic race, the true old boats will not be able to achieve this time out window in anything other than good conditions

[Jon Fuller]

In '09 we broke down in Torbay and limped the 100 miles home on one engine, well-outside the time allowed (not listed finishers). But, we run at close to 70 now (in the flat) and 2010 showed that we were easily slowed to an average of just over 40 when the going gets properly tough (4'.55" elapsed time this year) that speed is what Jonathan runs at on a good day in 747, therefore he would have been slowed considerably more than us (as we saw, breaking outside the time allowed). I just feel that if the club wants to run a 200+ mile race, run it in real offshore conditions when they arise, and wants entries from the likes of Jonathan, the race rules should be such that he can reasonably expect to be able to finish within the time allowed, ie, it should be an achievable goal.

I would have thought it possible to have a skeleton safety fleet in place as far as say Portland or into Lyme bay a bit, an hour earlier than the rest of the course. By portland, the Buzzi's of this world will already be bearing down on the slower historic boats. So no one would be out any later, just 'a few' safety boats would be in place a little earlier to enable it. Maybe some of the spectator fleet who enjoy the historic element would be happy to step up to the plate to maintain their interest....the Fairy owners club etc???

If you're happy to take his money, I feel you should he happy to give him a good, fair shot at being a finisher, or there's no point in him turning up.

It may mean no Red Jet start boat for them, instead maybe an official boat such as Pandamonium or similar, but I feel sure they wouldn't mind that if it meant they could be official finishers.

JMHO.

[biffer]

fully agree with you John, i can talk for GEE and i don't think we will be entering a wooden boat into a race we have no hope of finishing, knowing Miss Daisy i would guess he has the same attitude, still not to worry i'm sure something else will come along that we can have fun doing.
i'd like to make it plain that i'm not having a go at anybody, i just think that if the powers to be want these old boats about they must make some concessions for them

[Martin The Talker]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

In '09 we broke down in Torbay and limped the 100 miles home on one engine, well-outside the time allowed (not listed finishers). But, we run at close to 70 now (in the flat) and 2010 showed that we were easily slowed to an average of just over 40 when the going gets properly tough (4'.55" elapsed time this year) that speed is what Jonathan runs at on a good day in 747, therefore he would have been slowed considerably more than us (as we saw, breaking outside the time allowed). I just feel that if the club wants to run a 200+ mile race, run it in real offshore conditions when they arise, and wants entries from the likes of Jonathan, the race rules should be such that he can reasonably expect to be able to finish within the time allowed, ie, it should be an achievable goal.

I would have thought it possible to have a skeleton safety fleet in place as far as say Portland or into Lyme bay a bit, an hour earlier than the rest of the course. By portland, the Buzzi's of this world will already be bearing down on the slower historic boats. So no one would be out any later, just 'a few' safety boats would be in place a little earlier to enable it. Maybe some of the spectator fleet who enjoy the historic element would be happy to step up to the plate to maintain their interest....the Fairy owners club etc???

If you're happy to take his money, I feel you should he happy to give him a good, fair shot at being a finisher, or there's no point in him turning up.

It may mean no Red Jet start boat for them, instead maybe an official boat such as Pandamonium or similar, but I feel sure they wouldn't mind that if it meant they could be official finishers.

JMHO.

This sounds an acheivable compromise, imho of course !

[FLYING FISH]

So,after god knows how many years we had a race with true testing offshore conditions,and now it`s being analysed to see if Historics are up to it.Are we saying that if you have a boat in historic class,it`s so shot away after all those years it can`t cope.Dry Martini IV hasn`t got the mileage on it,and Miss Daisy has proved it can cope and it`s not as old as some Fairey boats.
Gee ticks on and is more of a veteran with it`s good ol Souter build hull,and has finished the course several times in the past.

Every time you get a really strong blow,it will never suit the whole fleet,and competitors know before they start the odds they have of putting in a good performance.

If Gee had a bad time of it because it took the direct route across,and got more than it bargained for,why use this as a yardstick to compromise the challenge that is the traditional full course.Sir Max would have a few choice words on that I bet.

I would think the law of averages would say the weather in the next few years will be more `Lucky Lloyd` weather,and the subject of time limits won`t be so critical.

When you think some class III boats in the past attempted the race and finished, but when it blew they still attempted it, knowing they wouldn`t get far but had the satisfaction of taking part.That`s the roll of the dice,but you don`t tinker with the format once a real blow sets in,otherwise the challenge goes.

The irony is other than Gee,wev`e yet to see a really used veteran boat consider a 200NM race,and if we did it would probably only try the full distance in fairly conservative conditions.Of course the veteran Red FPT makes a mockery of any course shortening.

[Jon Fuller]

Dunno if we have crossed wires here, but I don't wanna see a shortened course! Hell no!

I just think the time allowed has to be long enough that anyone whose money you've taken (as organisers), can within reason, complete the race. 6 hours, for a 40mph fairey in bad conditions isn't enough for that.

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Dunno if we have crossed wires here, but I don't wanna see a shortened course! hell no!

I just think the time allowed has to be long enough that anyone whose money you've taken (as organisers), can within reason, complete the race. 6 hours, for a 40mph fairey in bad conditions isn't enough for that.

It was Mr.Ciao`s musing on class H turning at Portland, and Biffers comment re true historic boats not being within the time limit and the demise of Historics in the full course other than good conditions,that prompted the rant.

I want to see Dry Martini do the full course not turn at Portland,and if that means considering a time limit adjustment in bad conditions for the slowest capable boat,then just how much of an adjustment is it really going to be and for how many boats.

[FLYING FISH]

I could be devil`s advocate here and suggest Historics turn at Portland,then Miss Daisy says I want the challenge of the full course ,so I`ll change class and set off in bad conditions and with hell to it,and all because tinkering has open the door.I could crush a grape.

[biffer]

You might have me wrong, i'm not looking for a shorter course, but a more reasonable time to finish the full coarse in rough weather, GEE couldn't do it in that time when she was new and she won't do it now, in the rough weather that is.

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by biffer

you might have me wrong, i'm not looking for a shorter coarse but a more reasonable time to finish the full coarse in rough weather, GEE couldn't do it in that time when she was new and she won't do it now, in the rough weather that is.

I know you weren`t suggesting course shortening,and a more reasonable time to finish is the target,but nevertheless,course shortening for Historics appears to be thought about,and if this becomes a reality the challenge diminishes.Sure,you don`t want to have marshal boats out there in grotty conditions longer than you need,but what exactly are we talking about here.

For example in 1968 conditions were very similar (force 4,becoming force 7 at times),Gee averaged 35 mph.This would have just put her inside the time limit.OK, since then she has had a revamp with increased accommodation and slightly less horsepower,so let`s say by todays standards she could maintain 30mph,which could mean circa 7hr time limit,or if 25 mph,circa 8hrs time limit.

So are we trading 1 or 2 hrs extra marshal boat time for a reduction in the overall challenge.

BTW I know Gee is a lumbering old beast,but I note little Fugitive with two thirds the power of Gee made it within the time limit.Mr.Ciao knows the speed of Gee in rough conditions and the time limit set,yet only now the subject is aired.Oheeeh! my CTC Director.No slopey shoulder stuff please.

[Jon Fuller]

Graham, this isn't only just getting aired.

Jonathan Napier asked at the '09 race if more time could be allowed for the slower boats the next year.

At the briefing for the 2010 CTC, Jonathan again asked for more time, sighting his request from the year before, but was told by the OOD it was too late to change anything.

A few of us asked the OOD on Jon's behalf, but he said it was simply too late to change things (A bit hard to swallow for Jon, as he'd asked a full year earlier). Rob Andrews is a fab OOD, no nonsense, and the best race briefer ever, and I feel he would be perfectly flexible on this, given the time to implement it.

That's why Jonathan's asking now, in good time for the 2011 race.

[Carl]

you could allways pay the safety boats for anything over the time limit

[Tony Davis]

Originally Posted by Carl

you could allways pay the safety boats for anything over the time limit

I like your thinking

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Carl

you could allways pay the safety boats for anything over the time limit

if the time limit was right (for the slower boats) no one would be outside it. This aint Honda, or P1.

[biffer]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

I know you weren`t suggesting course shortening,and a more reasonable time to finish is the target,but nevertheless,course shortening for Historics appears to be thought about,and if this becomes a reality the challenge diminishes.Sure,you don`t want to have marshal boats out there in grotty conditions longer than you need,but what exactly are we talking about here.

For example in 1968 conditions were very similar (force 4,becoming force 7 at times),Gee averaged 35 mph.This would have just put her inside the time limit.OK, since then she has had a revamp with increased accommodation and slightly less horsepower,so let`s say by todays standards she could maintain 30mph,which could mean circa 7hr time limit,or if 25 mph,circa 8hrs time limit.

So are we trading 1 or 2 hrs extra marshal boat time for a reduction in the overall challenge.

BTW I know Gee is a lumbering old beast,but I note little Fugitive with two thirds the power of Gee made it within the time limit.Mr.Ciao knows the speed of Gee in rough conditions and the time limit set,yet only now the subject is aired.Oheeeh! my CTC Director.No slopey shoulder stuff please.

i think the 7 hrs would be right, just to clarify Gee's performance at 2010ctc, we finished the coarse exactly how it was laid out, even though there were no marshal's or safety boats still out, we had slowed down only because we were red flagged at berry head, we missed the time out for going to the aid of Bounty Hunter that was dead in the water, the marshal's ask if we tow her back to cowes, we offered to tow her to Torquay, after a time we were told we could carry on, but by then the damage was done.
we aired this subject of time before the race and it was also aired at the end of the year before by Miss Daisy.
i can't talk for Mr Fuller or Mr Napier which, like us, i would expect, are good sports and gentlemen, we only ask that a bit of common sense prevails, Mr Fuller's suggestion of historic's starting early sound's like a good idea.
i've just read some other post which have been posted while i was writing mine, it's been said, more or less, pay your money and take your chances, fair enough, but what add's weight to Johnathan's plight is that he had transported Miss Daisy all the way from the South of France just for the race

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Graham, this isn't only just getting aired.

Jonathan Napier asked at the '09 race if more time could be allowed for the slower boats the next year.

At the briefing for the 2010 CTC, Jonathan again asked for more time, sighting his request from the year before, but was told by the OOD it was too late to change anything.

A few of us asked the OOD on Jon's behalf, but he said it was simply too late to change things (A bit hard to swallow for Jon, as he'd asked a year earlier). Rob Andrews is a fab OOD, no nonsense, and the best race briefer ever, and I feel he would be perfectly flexible on this, given the time to implement it.

That's why Jonathan's asking now, in good time for the 2011 race.

How bizarre not to record what is obviously a logical request,and a year go by without it being discussed.Not good.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

if the time limit was right (for the slower boats) no one would be outside it. This aint Honda, or P1.

true,but a token gesture never goes amiss

[biffer]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

BTW I know Gee is a lumbering old beast,but I note little Fugitive with two thirds the power of Gee made it within the time limit.

i bet she doesn't weigh over 8 tonnes though (dry)

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

if the time limit was right (for the slower boats) no one would be outside it. This aint Honda, or P1.

Sounds like wev`e arrived at a point where the performance envelope is being pushed to extremes (25 mph to 90+mph) depending on weather conditions,and todays organization is being pushed to the limit to cope,with lack of safety boats and time spent out there.

Difficult to organise a sweep system,and if you started historics early,still need more time out there marshalling.I thought the idea of marathon was to always be self sufficent anyway,and with todays tracker technology,I would have thought for the odd slower boat exceeding 6hrs,they could be tracked, with a rib on standby in sheltered waters as a backup.(say Portland to home)

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

I would have thought for the odd slower boat exceeding 6hrs,they could be tracked, with a rib on standby in sheltered waters as a backup.(say Portland to home)

Agreed. It must be fixable one way or another.