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Old 31-12-2010, 12:58 AM   #81
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what happens at present when the allotted time runs out??
all the safety crews go home / prize giving??
so what happens to the boats that are still out there?? surely someone is making sure they are ok or that they are back???
can they not just get an approximate completion time rather than a DNF?? by reporting to someone once back at the finish??
Its no hastle at all really is it??
My understanding of the present situation is that the first safety boat you reach having passed your allotted time allowance is instructed to 'Red Flag' you. You are then 'disqualified' and should make your way home under your own steam..

You are of course free if you choose, to complete the course correctly by
rounding all the marks - but you'll be on your own and
no time will be recorded.

As you so rightly say, no, not a lot of hassle to record a time back in port and NIT - not in time.

Disqualified just isn't the right term for a team that makes it there and back under their own steam in the spirit of the race!

It is self sufficient Marathon Racing after all.
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Old 31-12-2010, 08:55 AM   #82
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My understanding of the present situation is that the first safety boat you reach having passed your allotted time allowance is instructed to 'Red Flag' you. You are then 'disqualified' and should make your way home under your own steam..

You are of course free if you choose, to complete the course correctly by
rounding all the marks - but you'll be on your own and
no time will be recorded.

As you so rightly say, no, not a lot of hassle to record a time back in port and NIT - not in time.

Disqualified just isn't the right term for a team that makes it there and back under their own steam in the spirit of the race!

It is self sufficient Marathon Racing after all.
I have been trying to keep out of this discussion but I can’t let this go by. I totally agree with the above post and any official with any sense whatever should as well.

Disqualifying a competitor from this great race for ANY reason, except for bad behaviour and bad seamanship, is completely unacceptable and that is the reason that in 2008 I requested that Cinzano, after having run for 170 miles, should not be disqualified for missing the finish line gate ( and going through the watching fleet of boats) and instead to be given a warning of some sort. Fortunately the officials involved did indeed give them a Yellow card instead of the disqualification.

Taking part in the Cowes-Torquay-Cowes is an adventure for every team and also very stressful let alone the cost. Any team that completes the course should be recognised for doing so whether out of time or not. To Red Flag them is nonsense.

If they want to encourage more boats to enter then the BPRC should consider being more flexible.
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:23 AM   #83
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Taking part in the Cowes-Torquay-Cowes is an adventure for every team and also very stressful let alone the cost. Any team that completes the course should be recognised for doing so whether out of time or not. To Red Flag them is nonsense.
Selective memory?
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File Type: pdf cowes torquay cowes results 2009.pdf (35.4 KB, 415 views)
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:30 AM   #84
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is mike talking about 2010 ? the 49th anniversary year !!!!
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:30 AM   #85
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As I was in this position on Garmin for mechanical reasons this year I can tell you all we knew was that there was discussion on the radio and we chatted to safety - one of the boats did stay out and they kept a watch on the radio, a certain Mr Peter Unwin also waited for us and escorted us up the Solent which was a very welcome sight indeed after such a brutal race!
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:33 AM   #86
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What you say Mike is quite correct,but I think at the end of the day the sums weren`t done to cater for a worst case scenario,and now a small problem becomes a big one when analysed.If the powers that be were honest about this they would realize an error has occurred.This doesn`t make them bad organisers,it`s just that with all the other things to consider to organise, their eye came off the ball in that particular area.

I wonder if a 9.00am start would cause rioting in the ranks.The big Marathon races would do it.That time can`t be much different from setting out for a Hurst start.

Mr.Shead always said,one of the things he looked forward to most on the day was the mass start,so I can understand what Jonathan felt about this.

BTW Mr.Ciao, it may be possible you can come out of your Blackadder bunker by the time we reach post 500.
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:35 AM   #87
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BTW Mr.Ciao, it may be possible you can come out of your Blackadder bunker by the time we reach post 500.
Oh,apologises,you just have!
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:38 AM   #88
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To clarify my position, I don't actually have a problem with a time limit, and in '09 we were well out of that time limit, unsurprisingly with only one engine for half of the race. As soon as we broke down in Torquay, as far as we were concerned, our race was over. Making our way back under our own steam was more about getting home without the headache of trains, trucks, trailers and many hours on the busy west country roads, than trying to be a finisher.

My point is simply that an organised race should allow enough time for the slowest boats to finish if the conditions are bad (but good enough to raise the green flag!).

My suggestion of starting some boats early appears not to be popular with those it affects, so why not just add an hour to the allowed time. it still only means a handful of safety boats left patrolling the last leg home. Can't see the big deal.

There has to be a max allowable time, I just want to see it fair for those who enter.
As I say, we broke down which is fair enough, but that's very different to just battling all the way to Torquay and back at your best speed and being thrown a red flag at the end and no recognition.
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:23 AM   #89
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that is the reason that in 2008 I requested that Cinzano, after having run for 170 miles, should not be disqualified for missing the finish line gate ( and going through the watching fleet of boats) and instead to be given a warning of some sort. Fortunately the officials involved did indeed give them a Yellow card instead of the disqualification.

.
Looking at your comment again Mike,in 1964 Dick Bertram in Lucky Moppie did a similar thing at the Torquay finish and had to return correctly.Presumably Cinzano didn`t,so in theory should have been disqualified ,as in 1963 Tramontana II finished only to be disqualified for missing a mark at Bournemouth,and again in 1962,Ultima Dea,A`Speranziella,and Jackie S all finished but were later disqualified.Tough, but those were the rules in those days.

Bring on the anoraks!
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:30 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lloyd View Post
I have been trying to keep out of this discussion but I can’t let this go by. I totally agree with the above post and any official with any sense whatever should as well.

Disqualifying a competitor from this great race for ANY reason, except for bad behaviour and bad seamanship, is completely unacceptable and that is the reason that in 2008 I requested that Cinzano, after having run for 170 miles, should not be disqualified for missing the finish line gate ( and going through the watching fleet of boats) and instead to be given a warning of some sort. Fortunately the officials involved did indeed give them a Yellow card instead of the disqualification.

Taking part in the Cowes-Torquay-Cowes is an adventure for every team and also very stressful let alone the cost. Any team that completes the course should be recognised for doing so whether out of time or not. To Red Flag them is nonsense.

If they want to encourage more boats to enter then the BPRC should consider being more flexible.
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i was one of the boats cinzano went past approx 20ft away, very exciting,did one of the crew get told off for not putting his helmet back on when they realised they missed the mark and went back round
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Old 31-12-2010, 03:25 PM   #91
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i was one of the boats cinzano went past approx 20ft away, very exciting,did one of the crew get told off for not putting his helmet back on when they realised they missed the mark and went back round
I have no idea, I was too busy yelling down the phone at the OOD and the RYA Commissioner for which I apologised later!! I don't think they have forgiven me though even now.
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Old 31-12-2010, 03:35 PM   #92
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.Tough, but those were the rules in those days.
Didn't know it had ever changed - for me, navigation is vital part of offshore racing and if you miss a mark / wrong side - then you are disqualified. Can't see how you can have it any other way - otherwise how far do you bend the rules and for who?

As to time limits - then some compromise of timings to give the classic boats more of a chance in poor weather. Earlier start or later finish, I'm sure something could be done.
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Old 31-12-2010, 03:59 PM   #93
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The time limit for the Historic Class does need to allow for historic boats to finish...

As an example, my Huntsman 28 raced in 67, she's all original with her original perkins engines and flat out on a clam day full of fuel does 28 knots.

If I entered (I'm not going to, just demonstrating the point) I could not possibly complete the 200 mile course inside the time limit without the help of a De Lorean and a lightening bolt.

If Historic Racing is going to be encouraged as a class in this event the rules need to reflect the capability of the older boats. Lets not lose sight of the fact that both 606 Petita and 747 Miss Daisy are a great deal faster than when they were built.

I happen to think an ideal way of getting the older boats involved in the event is for them to support local safety boating, perhaps leaving the bigger more capable and robust safety boats available to go further along the course giving better coverage.

Happy new year everyone. I'm looking forward to Cowes already!
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Old 31-12-2010, 04:18 PM   #94
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morning mate, glad you got back, i've found quite a good solar bilge pump for your other toy, i knew i could trust you to come up with the best solution
If want Solar Pumps I can probably Help You can call me on 07792604280
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Old 31-12-2010, 05:06 PM   #95
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As a current racer if you cock up the navigation it's a DQ no question - same as jettisoning your liferaft!
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Old 01-01-2011, 02:41 PM   #96
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Old 01-01-2011, 05:45 PM   #97
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Hi

We did go back and correct our course in 08

Eric Cinzano
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Old 03-01-2011, 04:34 PM   #98
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Quote:
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To clarify my position, I don't actually have a problem with a time limit, and in '09 we were well out of that time limit, unsurprisingly with only one engine for half of the race. As soon as we broke down in Torquay, as far as we were concerned, our race was over. Making our way back under our own steam was more about getting home without the headache of trains, trucks, trailers and many hours on the busy west country roads, than trying to be a finisher.

My point is simply that an organised race should allow enough time for the slowest boats to finish if the conditions are bad (but good enough to raise the green flag!).

My suggestion of starting some boats early appears not to be popular with those it affects, so why not just add an hour to the allowed time. it still only means a handful of safety boats left patrolling the last leg home. Can't see the big deal.

There has to be a max allowable time, I just want to see it fair for those who enter.
As I say, we broke down which is fair enough, but that's very different to just battling all the way to Torquay and back at your best speed and being thrown a red flag at the end and no recognition.
Please see my post No.69 of the 29th. re effect of extending time limit at the END of the race & its effects on Prize Giving.
An early start for historic boats would not, of course, have the same effect.
All imho of course.
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Old 03-01-2011, 05:35 PM   #99
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Please see my post No.69 of the 29th. re effect of extending time limit at the END of the race & its effects on Prize Giving.
An early start for historic boats would not, of course, have the same effect.
All imho of course.
Something to mull over Martin.

According to the 1965 CT Programme the time limit at Torquay was 21.00hrs! (10.00 start).

Now I know the slower boats were much slower than Gee for example,and I assume the privegiving must have been on the following day,but here we have the two extremes of time limit 11hrs v 6 hrs.

If say the time limit at the end was 7hrs (circa 30mph av),then it would be a more reasonable fiqure for the owners to decide whether or not to attempt the classic course.Half an hour earlier start or later finish could be a way round it.

Just think,you have a rough race and the last boat prize winner comes in at 16.59hrs and at the 19.30hrs privegiving it is announced that,we can`t give a prize to that boat cos we only had two hours before he had time to accept his prize.Nah,you couldn`t make it up,or maybe you could.
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Old 03-01-2011, 05:40 PM   #100
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Are we saying 11 hours was allowed for the one way race?

What was the race distance that year?
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