Handicap Racing

[motorvator]

Prompted by the RI thread and this sort of talk....

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

And following on from that, the minimum length for A class is 37', not 24'.

So a 37 footer will need to weigh 4600kg. I don't think that's a way off the mark figure, considering that boats in this class could have triple, or quad instals. If you go to the max length, you will need to weigh 6250kg. A 50 footer with triples, or quads is very unlikely to weigh that little. I think it would be more likely to weigh upwards of 7000kg.

Also consider that if someone chose to run a 40 footer in A class, with a pair of 1000+hp Sterling blower motors (perfectly feasable within the current rules) 4600kg would be a very reasonable figure, and still show a good sprint speed (vs the high rough water ability of the larger, but slower boats). also bear in mind that Sterling will build you 1500hp blower motors that fall within the supercharged capacity limits of A class. Suddenly 4600kg doesn't sound all that heavy at all.

Tim Brand-Cromby, go away. One spiteful, disruptive and ill informed post every six months is neither helpful, nor welcome.

I have often wondered how simple / difficult it would be to calculate a fair handicap system for Racing which levels classes or even individual boats.

Sort of like the Portsmouth Yardstick that the rag and stick brigade use.

It seems a relatively easy thing to do given we know Length, Weight and CC of individual entrants and the course length to come up with an adjustment formula that could be applied as an adjusted time after the event or even staggered release times that would have all boats racing for the line for the overall win.

I am also assuming we have enough results from RB8 etc to calculate it fairly. And with input from some of the gurus on here with results from as far back as steam driven racing it must be do-able.

It does seem that the most spectacular part of say a marathon is the start when it should really be the finish and it would also allow boats that don't meet class to race fairly as a basic entry.

I should point out that I wasn't actually thinking marathon specifcally but an overall system that could be applied to all boats.

Feasibe or just another daft idea caused by my funny fags?

[Jon Fuller]

Personally never really 'got' handicapping. If someone really excels on the day, and wins by say, 20 mins, they wanna be proud of that, and I reckon you'll end up with people working the results backwards and saying. "If I wasn't handicapped, I'd have won by....." which begs the question, why handicap in the first place.

Also, if you handicap based on historic performance, then you get a run of rough, or calm races and as a result, one team continues to to do well/win, their success (along with everyones else's failures) will be blamed on the system. Handicapping to me, seems like rewarding the medioca, and punishing the brilliant, which doesn't really inspire improvement, or bettering ones performance/ability. Remember Offshore 2000? the better you did, the more you were penilised. Pete Little drove consistently well and as a result, he had to go better at each event, well, you can only go so well. all the wankers that couldn't drive a greasy stick up a ducks arse on the other hand, were given an easier job at each event, and then when they got a podium, or heaven forbid, a win, they were cheered for being so shite that by season end, the handicap imposed on the good racers was so high, they'd (the shite racer) actually done ok. most odd if you ask me.

I'm sure there will be a que of people lining up to tell me I'm talking shit (again), but hey.

[motorvator]

I can see the pitfalls.

Would you up for it if we were to come up with a method that included crew weights.

I don't see weather as being an issue as that exists already in whatever format you are.

Whatever you did would have to be a clever little formula that couldn't be tinkered with along the lines of how we calculate expected max speeds now but with an adjustment down to expected average speed.

To me there must be a benefit overall from both a spectator and competitor viewpoint of it being possible to bring in say an OCR boat or Gee over the finish line in front of say a Fountain.

I know they have tried this sort with the circuit racing at Oulton where they release the one and only F2 into the circuit full of F4 and hydroplanes after 5 laps or so. I don't know how successful it is but it obviously allows the F2 something to aim for rather than being both the first and last boat in class.

[Mike Ring]

[QUOTE=motorvator;182378]I can see the pitfalls.


Whatever you did would have to be a clever little formula .......






Just make it age thing !!!!!! Mr Moto.

Old Farts Rule !

Mike ( and for Mike )

[motorvator]

[QUOTE=Mike Ring;182402]

Originally Posted by motorvator

I can see the pitfalls.


Whatever you did would have to be a clever little formula .......






Just make it age thing !!!!!! Mr Moto.

Old Farts Rule !

Mike ( and for Mike )

I get the gist Mike.

You two turn up fully kitted with rigid inflatable zimmers, incontinence pants, poorly fitted wigs, coke bottle specs, stinking of mothballs and you end with a start time of Thursday with the remainder of the fleet setting off on Sunday?

The question is would that be enough to level the field for you?

Or do we need to add more for an outdated design

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by motorvator

Or do we need to add more for an outdated design

Don't think Mike has any intention of running a Revenger!

[Mike Ring]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Don't think Mike has any intention of running a Revenger!

Naah,

They were NO trouble back in the day !!

Anyway, I guess an early 80s designed Revenger would be at a disadvantage today.... so you can have the handicap, we are quite happy to stand and be counted on our merits good or bad.

Mike

[southwesthotcat]

I'm a Handicap ... fag in gob and full face hat on

Correct me if I'm wrong .... but have we not got Handicap Racing already?

The formula is simple and the weight heavy.

[motorvator]

Ah, just noticed I misspelt the last post.... I meant outdated designer

[motorvator]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Don't think Mike has any intention of running a Revenger!

You leave my Revenger alone. Us kids / younguns running 80's designs have got to stick together

[southwesthotcat]

Andy Capp’s gained weight.
Andy Capp is the eponymous star of the long-running comic strip, which first appeared in Britain in 1957 and was then syndicated worldwide. He is, as the Toonopedia says, “lazy, belligerent, unskilled at any socially acceptable occupation, and usually drunk.” He always wears a hat pulled down low over his eyes.

[motorvator]

Originally Posted by southwesthotcat

Andy Capp’s gained weight.
Andy Capp is the eponymous star of the long-running comic strip, which first appeared in Britain in 1957 and was then syndicated worldwide. He is, as the Toonopedia says, “lazy, belligerent, unskilled at any socially acceptable occupation, and usually drunk.” He always wears a hat pulled down low over his eyes.

That is so unfair. I never wear a hat.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by southwesthotcat

The formula is simple and the weight heavy.

I'm sure the TWG / ORC are already looking forward to your submission of an improved set of Marathon rules.

[southwesthotcat]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

I'm sure the TWG / ORC are already looking forward to your submission of an improved set of Marathon rules.

If that's a challenge ... I don't mind sending you some suggestions, by way of constructive criticism.
I would much rather do it via you as you're the (best) man for a difficult responsible job.
I think your rules and the spirit behind them are well thought out and not so bad, but there should always be room for making them better and fairer.
Open discussion should not be taken personally and consultation with all interested parties is very rewarding and healthy, your Boatmad forum is the perfect medium.

One comment ... about Old Man's post regarding Fish's suggested prize categories ('First Diesel' etc), when Old man said that the cost of the prizes is onerous ... if we had less class sub-divisions with awards for - 1st, 2nd and 3rd places, it could well mean less prizes to purchase rather than more.

As you know, Offshore is a without doubt a 'cheque book' sport but it is, in my view, very much a good healthy, competitive and a proper sport with many Teims with a bigger cheque book frequently being thrashed by better prepared Teams.
XX

[Jon Fuller]

Well, I'm nowt to do with the rules now, so challenge or not, you'll have to approach Barrie & his team, or just go straight to Heir Puddyfoot (one man judge, jurer and excecutioner) and cut out the middle men.

I only discuss/defend the existing rules on here because I was involved to some degree in their creation at the outset, and personally still think they work just fine. Time will tell I guess.

Good luck with your quest.

[OCRDA]

OK back to my old suggestion that i know one or two people have started to realise was not so rediculous particularly with the limited numbers we have to cater for.

Simply we have 1,2 & 3 litre, or multiples of !! inboard or outboard where inboard can be twice the capacity of outboard. Non epa race and forced induction motors move up to next class. no other restrictions only that the organisers have the right to refuse any silly entries ie 16ft phantom fitted with 1075 sci merc !!

There now think hard and positive as to how that would work NOT how it would'nt.
I have also started with "Trophies will only be awarded to min numbers" ie if only 3 entries then only 1st place, 4 entries 1st & 2nd and min of 5 entries for 1st,2nd & 3rd

Bob

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by OCRDA

Non epa race and forced induction motors move up to next class.
Bob

Turbo Diesels?? (forced induction) or do we have to run old Perkins 4108's @ 47hp to stay in class?

[OCRDA]

With inboards twice capacity of outboards you could just take it that inboards would be forced induction !! or leave as it says ie 9ltr and 9ltr turbo becomes 12ltr class !!

[Mike Ring]

Originally Posted by motorvator

You leave my Revenger alone. Us kids / younguns running 80's designs have got to stick together

It is cruel fate that I will be unable to manifest myself as a 70 year old when you reach that venerable age so that we may truly test our respective capabilities on a level playing field.

So as a person of lesser years please carry on mocking the aged with my blessing, safe in the knowledge that you will never be called to account.

However your record as a pilote can be tested against your peers.

So , What have you achieved racing wise to date?

Please forgive my ignorance of an extensive knowledge of Offshore results since 1989 where obviously your talent will have shone through and will be recorded..

Mike

[motorvator]

Mike I could never claim to have anything like your level of race heritage, last time I was behind the wheel in anger was 1984 so I'm an old duffer too. I have nothing but admiration for what you are doing at the moment