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23-01-2011, 12:19 PM
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#1
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numbskull
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Handicapping
Reading the words in the marathon announcement I note JP is suggesting/proposing a handicapping system because of the low number of entries in each class. I have to say that personally i'm not at all in favour of handicapping of any sort in racing.
This suggestion has come about due to the ruling that a minimum of two entries within a class is needed to gain points, a ruling I totally agree with.
So, which classes are likely to regularly have only one entry?
In 'E' class, we 'usually' have two (used to be more) in Gordon C and us.
'D' has pretty much always had Hot Lemon and has seen Grey Ghost, Seahound and a 3rd Scorp from time to time, plus we will soon have the Boss 34, and Ring 34.
'C' class only really has Bob in the XS, so C is an issue
'B' has Cinzano, Fury, and some other potentials.
'A' has Dean, Rob, and some other potentials.
So C appears to be the only class in immediate trouble.
Thoughts??
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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23-01-2011, 12:37 PM
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#2
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I can understand why people don't like the idea of points being awarded if you're the only one in a class, but surely this will deter some from competing, especially in all of the events put on in a year, as they'd not really have much to gain?
Is JP looking to handicap the whole series, or just where required? Maybe a system could be put in whereby a boat in a class of it's own would be handicapped one way or the other to allow it to compete against boats in the higher class?
Not wishing to disagree with you Jon, as you know far more about this than me (seeing as you actually compete in it for starters!), but especially if it's only one class with an issue, it'd be easier to allow them to have points if on their own, it's not their fault no one else turned out for their class?
The issue I see as an organiser is that if one person drops a race from a class of two, then the other boat will most likely drop out too as there is no point racing for nothing, especially in a packed month like september?
On the flipside, if points were allowed for a single boat, it would encourage both boats to be there knowing that otherwise one will gain an advantage?
Hope you don't mind me putting my 2p's worth in, trying to keep as up to date as possible with marathon!
James
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23-01-2011, 12:50 PM
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#3
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
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As a temporary fix with one class, maybe it would work, but I can't help thinking that if someone starts a race, under a handicap worked out by someone else (obviously) and you consider the calculation used to be a bit unfair against you, then, you're beaten by a few seconds by a boat against which you're handicapped, I feel sure there would be immediate descent & a feeling that the man doing the (possible unfair) handicap calc in an office somewhere, chose the winner when coming up with the handicap figure.
Very difficult.
I can't see at all how someone can get a pot and points for 'winning a race', if the only person in that race (class) was that person, it's a (bad) joke and I'm sure the simply looking up the definition of the word 'Race' should be enough deter officials letting it go in that direction.. So for me, points for any less that two entries makes racing an absolute farce.
I would rather just be allowed to enter the class above and chance my hand at placing well amongst the better competition, holding my head high if I did ok, and hoping more folk turned out in future races so we could race properly together..
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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23-01-2011, 01:09 PM
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#4
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Registered User
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Posts: 6,891
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In sailing dinghies, handicap racing is common and well proven. However the circumstances are very different to marathon.
The relative change in performance for dinghies is much more linear between different classes due to wave and wind conditions
The statistical sample pool on which the handicap is based has a much much larger population.
So for that, it broadly works, certainly at a club level.
For marathon, there isn't a large enough sample population to actually do any kind of statistical analysis to ensure fairness. In particular, just because 1 boat consistently does well doesn't mean it should be more handicapped. If the results are actually due to a committed, well prepared crew who drive harder, they should be rewarded. But there isn't enough data to do that analysis. Any handicap system for marathon would have to be handicap combination of both man & machine because that's all the data available - yet it should/must actually a handicap of the boat only.
IIRC I think that Burnett's race series had this problem - guys like Pete little getting a much more significant handicap just because they were better drivers.
Secondly, the relative effect of sea conditions has a much larger, non linear impact on the boats performance between boat designs/classes.
For a hypothetical example:
Gordon Compton at one end, will run flat out in almost all conditions since the top speed of his boat is comparatively low. The % reduction speed of his boat due to the conditions is likely to be much lower than, for example, Cinzano.
This means that for an averaged out handicap, Gordon would be unfairly handicapped in the flat, but in the rough, Cinzano would be unfairly handicapped since it's drop in average speed is a greater %.
It would be interesting to see the no.s to validate to what degree this is actually the case - possibly it's small enough to be ignored, although I suspect not.
Thirdly, a handicapping system will start a new form of chequebook racing whereby people buy a boat based a perceived favourable handicap. It also means the organisers "could" tweak the handicap to ensure the favoured competitor wins. It would be almost impossible to argue this was happening though since the sample population on which the handicaps are based is so small as to be useless - you could argue each race would need a separate, retrospective, handicap. Which would kind of defeats the whole object if you are retrospectively applying a fudge factor to decide who won.
Does there need to be a solution to allow all boats to race? Yes.
Can a handicap system solve that problem - I strongly suspect not.
What about just allowing boats to step up a class. The nice thing about marathon was that it wasn't (originally at least) just about sticking 2 fingers up at everyone you've beaten, but that the reward of making it round is worth the effort.
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23-01-2011, 01:11 PM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Nothing wrong with carving you own wooden pots, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
I can't see at all how someone can get a pot and points for 'winning a race', if the only person in that race (class) was that person
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23-01-2011, 01:20 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
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Jon, Matt, I totally agree with what you've put and, assuming that the teams involved would be happy with it, I think you're onto a winner with allowing people to move up a class.
Question is, what would be the situation if hypothetically again, one boat in a class of two (lets say they're in class C) doesn't do a race. What does the remaining class C boat do then? Points gained in class B won't make any difference for their overall class C score, which is what they're aiming for, but they can't get C points as they're the only one who turned out. Surely they just won't bother going?
Seeing as all classes currently have about 2 racers, I'm concerned that this could result in a race going from all boats to nothing all of a sudden due to a few dropouts for whatever reason, fatal for the organiser?
Would it be possible to apply the 1 boat rule just for ongoing situations, as currently seen in class C with the XS, whereas if it's just a 1 race situation, points still apply as this would encourage people to attend all events to ensure their competitor doesn't get an advantage over them?
James
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23-01-2011, 01:30 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,891
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In sailing,you get points for starting, you get points for finishing, and you get more points for being placed. (I should add - used to get - I haven't raced dinghies for about 15 years)
So a DNS scores 0. A DNF scores a bit, and if you finished, you score more in line with your finish place. I think in terms of winning the series, if you are the only boat overall, then there shouldn't be a prize, but if you won cos you turned up every time and finished the race, whereas other boats only turned up occasionally, then there should be recognition of that. But it's also reasonable that if you are the only boat, you shouldn't receive the same no. points as someone who beat 10 other boats in a fight to the finish race.
Would that work for marathon - I dunno. It's just an idea.
Let's not forget, winning marthon aint like winning a formula 1 race. You're not suddenly catapulted to superstardom, it just means your name is slightly higher on a list than someone elses.
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23-01-2011, 02:49 PM
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#8
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Registered User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
I would rather just be allowed to enter the class above and chance my hand at placing well amongst the better competition, holding my head high if I did ok, and hoping more folk turned out in future races so we could race properly together..
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(Please no more rules.....)
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23-01-2011, 03:16 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Country: Guernsey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
In sailing,you get points for starting, you get points for finishing, and you get more points for being placed. (I should add - used to get - I haven't raced dinghies for about 15 years)
So a DNS scores 0. A DNF scores a bit, and if you finished, you score more in line with your finish place. I think in terms of winning the series, if you are the only boat overall, then there shouldn't be a prize, but if you won cos you turned up every time and finished the race, whereas other boats only turned up occasionally, then there should be recognition of that. But it's also reasonable that if you are the only boat, you shouldn't receive the same no. points as someone who beat 10 other boats in a fight to the finish race.
Would that work for marathon - I dunno. It's just an idea.
Let's not forget, winning marthon aint like winning a formula 1 race. You're not suddenly catapulted to superstardom, it just means your name is slightly higher on a list than someone elses.
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I'm with Matt on this one, this idea sounds pretty much perfect for the main series. If there's a class such as class C which is only expecting one entry, then I'm with allowing them to move up a notch and fight with the bigger boys!
James
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23-01-2011, 03:42 PM
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#10
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member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,039
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I remember the simple handicap that the RMYC used on their Wednesday Night series The Chasers, where you would have anythong from a zap/thunder cat up against P28s and large ribs etc too.
They all set off at set times relevent to the speed they could do, all did the same distance but if the 'handicappers' had done the job well they'd all finish about the same time........ so if the zap/thundercat set off first and after the time delay the larger boats went but the cat crossed the line 1st he'd be the winner.
Lots of number crunching for some but it was as simple 'who crossed the line 1st' won (ish)
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23-01-2011, 03:45 PM
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#11
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member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,039
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Oh and just incase you thought that the cat would win every time, well the winning boat would have their handicap adjusted for the next race to even things up, if the old memor is working that is
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23-01-2011, 04:04 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Reading the words in the marathon announcement I note JP is suggesting/proposing a handicapping system because of the low number of entries in each class. I have to say that personally i'm not at all in favour of handicapping of any sort in racing.
This suggestion has come about due to the ruling that a minimum of two entries within a class is needed to gain points, a ruling I totally agree with.
So, which classes are likely to regularly have only one entry?
In 'E' class, we 'usually' have two (used to be more) in Gordon C and us.
'D' has pretty much always had Hot Lemon and has seen Grey Ghost, Seahound and a 3rd Scorp from time to time, plus we will soon have the Boss 34, and Ring 34.
'C' class only really has Bob in the XS, so C is an issue
'B' has Cinzano, Fury, and some other potentials.
'A' has Dean, Rob, and some other potentials.
So C appears to be the only class in immediate trouble.
Thoughts??
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Can you kindly post this "Marathon Announcement" to which you refer Jon ?
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23-01-2011, 04:11 PM
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#13
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Registered User
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I'd be very interested to see the official 'announcement' too.
James
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23-01-2011, 04:38 PM
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#14
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Registered User
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23-01-2011, 05:00 PM
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#15
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numbskull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBP
the winning boat would have their handicap adjusted for the next race to even things up
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But as with all handicapped racing, and as Matt said already, this system punishes the skilful, and rewards the wankers.....and that's WRONG!
It was the downfall of Offshore 2000
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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23-01-2011, 05:46 PM
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#16
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Reading the words in the marathon announcement I note JP is suggesting/proposing a handicapping system because of the low number of entries in each class. I have to say that personally i'm not at all in favour of handicapping of any sort in racing.
This suggestion has come about due to the ruling that a minimum of two entries within a class is needed to gain points, a ruling I totally agree with.
So, which classes are likely to regularly have only one entry?
In 'E' class, we 'usually' have two (used to be more) in Gordon C and us.
'D' has pretty much always had Hot Lemon and has seen Grey Ghost, Seahound and a 3rd Scorp from time to time, plus we will soon have the Boss 34, and Ring 34.
'C' class only really has Bob in the XS, so C is an issue
'B' has Cinzano, Fury, and some other potentials.
'A' has Dean, Rob, and some other potentials.
So C appears to be the only class in immediate trouble.
Thoughts??
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No.no.no.no.no! Whats the point in handicapping a class when Marathon is just getting on it's feet. This is insane thinking.
I don't subscribe to the thinking that if there is only one boat in a class then they can't have any points. What's the point in him taking part and spending huge amounts of dosh then? What about Francis Whitley in Fugitive who has taken part in every race since the RB08 and races on his own in Glass G. Are you going to let him take part and not get ANY points ever? What about if he races for four hours in the CTC, does he get nothing, how obscene would that be?
We can't afford to lose anyone out of the fleet. For instance, we just might have Class C running one boat for two races this year and then at Cowes and South Coast have say three, how are you going to work that handicapping out?
As always go back to days gone by because lets face it there is nothing new here. This is not a new problem, we had it in Cruiser racing in the 1980's we had it in Class 11 in the late 80's and probably there were many instances in different classes in the 1990's.
There is no money to be made here; everyone races because they want to. We were assured that the Marathon rules wouldn't be messed with. So who is pushing who's buttons here? It's simply not acceptable and I for one am completely against it - handicapping that is. Leave the rules as they are and stop tinkering
ML.
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23-01-2011, 07:26 PM
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#17
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Country: England
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Marathon RYA National Championship
Handicaps confuse me.
Thinking about how a 2011 RYA Marathon Championship could be decided i.e. 1st, 2nd & 3rd. overall with all classes gets complicated with points, and amount of boats in the various classes.
So, how about this?
The Champion is decided by the highest average speed, with the most miles raced over the 4 or 5 heats in 2011.
This system was used for the Harmsworth Trophy - Cowes 2010, over 2 heats.
It placed an E boat (Swipewipes) 4th overall & a G boat (Fugitive) 6th overall out of nearly 30 competitors.
Of course this way is nothing new, this is how RB08 ran.
Surely, this way to decide a Marathon Championship for all classes, reflects a true Endurance Series.
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23-01-2011, 08:11 PM
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#18
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Chief C*nt!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
a handicapping system will start a new form of chequebook racing whereby people buy a boat based a perceived favourable handicap. It also means the organisers "could" tweak the handicap to ensure the favoured competitor wins.
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Surely not!
I can't see any reason why introducing handicapping into Marathon is necessary or sensible. To have an overall winner based on some artificial buggering around with the results would be pointless and ludicrous.
Awarding points for starting and finishing could be good though. If there are rounds with only one entrant in a class they could still pick up some points; not as many as in a contested round but still worth entering.
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What could possibly go wrong?
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23-01-2011, 08:16 PM
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#19
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Chief C*nt!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciao
The Champion is decided by the highest average speed, with the most miles raced over the 4 or 5 heats in 2011.
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Not really sure what this means? Is the "most miles raced" a decider if "average speed" is equal?
I assumed that the championship was awarded on points totalled up for overall placing, with class points awarded separately. Is that not how it works?
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What could possibly go wrong?
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24-01-2011, 08:52 AM
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#20
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BananaShark Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larby
Would it be possible to apply the 1 boat rule just for ongoing situations, as currently seen in class C with the XS, whereas if it's just a 1 race situation, points still apply as this would encourage people to attend all events to ensure their competitor doesn't get an advantage over them?
James
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I ended up losing a Championship because at the last round a couple of people were "broken" and the guy I could beat didn't turn up for me to beat either so I couldn't get any points meaning I didn't have a chance to win or lose on merit so I agree on the above as it would stop tactical stuff.
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