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14-07-2010, 10:22 AM
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#41
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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Well I have to disagree with that.
The reason for the current rule on measurement is that the larger stuff, with various forms of transom surface drives and the like could measure up to 5 or 6 feet longer, maybe more, than they really are. So a very small (smaller than considered safe for the power allowed in that class) boat could end up with huge power. I agree that with smaller stuff and certainly OCR an LOA measurement would work fine, but imagine a large marathon boat with a hefty notched transom and another 6' of bustle for the Trimax's, it could be 8 feet longer measured using LOA.
So the current system does give you a handle on boats being of like sized hulls, or at least the usable bit of the hull.
Anyway. onwards and sideways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCRDA
Its no more stupid than taking the length from the tip of the bow to part way along the boat !!
The simple way is to use the overall length !! ie From the front to the back !!
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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14-07-2010, 11:16 AM
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#42
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: london
Occupation: Powerboat Skipper
Interests: Boats , bikes!
Boat name: Renegade
Boat make: GPV-RENEGADE
Engines: 150 HO etec
Cruising area: Thames, south coast, anywhere!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: london
Posts: 2,330
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This may be stating the obvious to those in the know, but the pb1/ uim offshore rules are in my opinion antiquated and treat all offshore boats to an
Umbrella policy. By that I mean all boats to follow a scheme which does not take into consideration the difference between a 40ft race boat and production ski boat. This becomes an even greater divide when you put in classes that are essentially only a uk based series. Ocr being a prime example but still having to use the pb1 for rules. I could be speaking well out of turn here but I heard that in ski racing this situation of notched transoms has reared it's head with boats that are 23ft loa with a 21ft running surface. I stand to be corrected here but that was just hear say. The rules do need to be class specific. Paul.
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Im re branding pepper spray as Arsehole Repellant.im going to make a fortune.
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14-07-2010, 02:16 PM
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#43
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Trade Member
Country: England
Location: West Sussex
Occupation: Boatbuilder / Design
Interests: Anything powered on wheels, water or air
Boat name: OVERLORD
Boat make: RING 34' SPORTSBOAT 2 X V8 PETROL
Engines: 2 x 320 MERCRUISER B1
Cruising area: South coast
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 406
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I heard that in ski racing this situation of notched transoms has reared it's head with boats that are 23ft loa with a 21ft running surface.
I was fitting aft planing surfaces to some of my hulls in the late eighties to increase the planing length to gain an advantage in the rough.
"A rule book is a flexible thing" Its not always the right people that are composing the rules !
Mike
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Neglect not thy opportunities
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14-07-2010, 02:22 PM
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#44
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Registered User
Country: Job Centre
Location: In a box
Occupation: Chaos's gofer
Interests: Skiving
Boat make: Spectre 30
Engines: 2 x Promax 225
Cruising area: In the bath
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In a box
Posts: 5,201
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Well, who'd have thought it. You buy a 28' boat, only to discover that 4 inches is missing.
We've just measured Scotts genuine P28, and it ain't 28' long!!! In fact, if you discounted the "flair" at the deck join, it would barely be 27' long!!!!
So the official measurer did in fact measure correctly. We did the plum line measurement, and it really is 26' 5".
Perhaps Steve had a horrendous sawing accident, and lopped the end of his ruler off
Interesting enough, all the Ring's I've owned/built have measured longer than the stated length, showing that you do indeed get more for your money when you buy one!
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Chaos for Moderator.
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14-07-2010, 02:44 PM
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#45
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Senior Member
Country: UK
Location: Devon
Occupation: Garage Proprietor
Interests: PowerBoat Racing
Boat name: If Only
Boat make: Bernico F3 OCR, Bernico Prototype Inboard, and some Ribs
Engines: Yamaha Pro V 115
Cruising area: UK, France
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Devon
Posts: 3,095
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I bought my first 2 litre boat having been told that it was 18'6". When the manufacturer filled out the homologation forms he put it in as 18'2" !! Having already rigged it we measured it only to find that it was indeed only 18'2".
Fortunately prior to the measurer actually coming to check it a close mate had managed to add 4" to the front so it was fine !!
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If Only
National Outboard Immersed Propeller Mono Record 103mph
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14-07-2010, 02:56 PM
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#46
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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P16 ?
Perhaps a P16 and a bit >>
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14-07-2010, 03:03 PM
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#47
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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£5
£5 for a measurement cert back in 1988!
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14-07-2010, 04:37 PM
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#48
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: london
Occupation: Powerboat Skipper
Interests: Boats , bikes!
Boat name: Renegade
Boat make: GPV-RENEGADE
Engines: 150 HO etec
Cruising area: Thames, south coast, anywhere!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: london
Posts: 2,330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Ring
I heard that in ski racing this situation of notched transoms has reared it's head with boats that are 23ft loa with a 21ft running surface.
I was fitting aft planing surfaces to some of my hulls in the late eighties to increase the planing length to gain an advantage in the rough.
"A rule book is a flexible thing" Its not always the right people that are composing the rules !
Mike
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Are you saying you have been involved with rule controversy more than once, mr ring!? I find that hard to believe. Lol. Good luck with the 34 by the way.
__________________
Im re branding pepper spray as Arsehole Repellant.im going to make a fortune.
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14-07-2010, 07:35 PM
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#49
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 670
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and the moral of the story is...measure the boat after its sat in the hot sun for 8 hours
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14-07-2010, 08:28 PM
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#50
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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Measured mine today. 27'10" LOA (inc rub rail bow to stern)
UIM method, 26'7", which if you subtract the 2" for the transom plant for OB's appears to tie in with the others.
I guess for a boat that's only actually 10" longer than the world renowned E26, It's testament to it's superb design that it's immeasurably better in the rough.
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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14-07-2010, 08:34 PM
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#51
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
It's testament to it's superb design that it's immeasurably better in the rough.
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Sadly we missed seeing that quality in '09.
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14-07-2010, 08:39 PM
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#52
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciao
Sadly we missed seeing that quality in '09.
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Yes, if only we could convince Roger to put some standard motors in his 28 (and revise length rule for D, as it appears broken) then we'd see some action.
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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14-07-2010, 08:43 PM
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#53
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Registered User
Country: England
Location: Great Horwood
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Great Horwood
Posts: 2,372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Yes, if only we could convince Roger to put some standard motors in his 28 (and revise length rule for D, as it appears broken) then we'd see some action.
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Fingers crossed he doesn't bounce the entry fee cheque this year.
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14-07-2010, 09:01 PM
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#54
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,959
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lol
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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15-07-2010, 06:51 PM
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#55
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: Thorpe
Occupation: Mechanic
Boat name: spend it
Boat make: sr9 pascoe
Engines: 496 mag ho
Cruising area: Poole n solent
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Thorpe
Posts: 139
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p28 lenth
all this over 7 fkn inches mind u 7 inches would make ya fkn ass ert
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15-07-2010, 06:58 PM
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#56
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Trade Member
Country: England
Location: West Sussex
Occupation: Boatbuilder / Design
Interests: Anything powered on wheels, water or air
Boat name: OVERLORD
Boat make: RING 34' SPORTSBOAT 2 X V8 PETROL
Engines: 2 x 320 MERCRUISER B1
Cruising area: South coast
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade
Are you saying you have been involved with rule controversy more than once, mr ring!? I find that hard to believe. Lol. Good luck with the 34 by the way.
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From my point of view we have a major problem with " Set in stone" rules, I dunno whether to laugh or cry !
There are three UK boat builders that are investing possibly up to £300,000 between them to produce tooling , without the further cost of building a boat to prove our designs, to sell into the market that includes sportsboats cruisers and marathon racing. I am sure that all three of us have been very careful to apply the rules ( Set in stone ) to our measurements during construction.
What we have now is a situation developing whereby a Good Ole Boy who knows the right people can get a dispensation to run a boat out of class.
The idea of us spending 300k is to sell boats to those that dont have a boat that fits the rules, and as businesses we have lost a sale.
If you want a marine industry that supports the performance and racing scene it would be a sensible move for governing bodies of the sport RYA etc. to try and support us manufacturers who are putting our money where our beliefs lie. If you publish rules ( providing they are safety minded ) then damn well stick to them.
I know that my view is commercial and you are sport orientated , but there are precious few of us to take an interest in any form racing and we need your support to be able to continue.
Mike
PS .
As far as the boat under discussion in this thread is concerned , I have no concern with the outcome for that particular boat, my post is aimed at the rulemakers and those that apply them
__________________
Neglect not thy opportunities
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15-07-2010, 07:35 PM
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#57
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Registered User
Country: Job Centre
Location: In a box
Occupation: Chaos's gofer
Interests: Skiving
Boat make: Spectre 30
Engines: 2 x Promax 225
Cruising area: In the bath
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In a box
Posts: 5,201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Ring
The idea of us spending 300k is to sell boats to those that dont have a boat that fits the rules, and as businesses we have lost a sale.
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Mike, if it's possible to purchase a race ready 34 from you, for the value of a 15 year old phoney phantom, then not only will matey have one, but I dare say both Scott and myself will buy one as well!!!!
There's 3 sales for you already....
__________________
Chaos for Moderator.
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15-07-2010, 07:56 PM
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#58
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Trade Member
Country: England
Location: West Sussex
Occupation: Boatbuilder / Design
Interests: Anything powered on wheels, water or air
Boat name: OVERLORD
Boat make: RING 34' SPORTSBOAT 2 X V8 PETROL
Engines: 2 x 320 MERCRUISER B1
Cruising area: South coast
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Davis
Mike, if it's possible to purchase a race ready 34 from you, for the value of a 15 year old phoney phantom, then not only will matey have one, but I dare say both Scott and myself will buy one as well!!!!
There's 3 sales for you already....
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Bless you Tony.,
I was getting a bit worried about sales !!!
Mike
__________________
Neglect not thy opportunities
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15-07-2010, 09:40 PM
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 172
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I don't think it adds to the credibility of the sport or should I say the RYA if upon discovering your boat is the wrong length and overpowered it is a case of don't worry I will just make a phone call, get the rules changed and it will all be sorted.
If rules have to be changed or tweaked at least do it out of season so every one knows where they stand before the racing starts. Changes should also be made via an official audited and structured method not by phoning a mate in the RYA.
Rules may be changed in this case for the best of reasons but on the other hand allegations of corruption could easily be made.
All of course IMHO
Off now to dig a bunker to avoid any flack that is probably coming my way.
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15-07-2010, 10:05 PM
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#60
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: london
Occupation: Powerboat Skipper
Interests: Boats , bikes!
Boat name: Renegade
Boat make: GPV-RENEGADE
Engines: 150 HO etec
Cruising area: Thames, south coast, anywhere!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: london
Posts: 2,330
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Ring
From my point of view we have a major problem with " Set in stone" rules, I dunno whether to laugh or cry !
There are three UK boat builders that are investing possibly up to £300,000 between them to produce tooling , without the further cost of building a boat to prove our designs, to sell into the market that includes sportsboats cruisers and marathon racing. I am sure that all three of us have been very careful to apply the rules ( Set in stone ) to our measurements during construction.
What we have now is a situation developing whereby a Good Ole Boy who knows the right people can get a dispensation to run a boat out of class.
The idea of us spending 300k is to sell boats to those that dont have a boat that fits the rules, and as businesses we have lost a sale.
If you want a marine industry that supports the performance and racing scene it would be a sensible move for governing bodies of the sport RYA etc. to try and support us manufacturers who are putting our money where our beliefs lie. If you publish rules ( providing they are safety minded ) then damn well stick to them.
I know that my view is commercial and you are sport orientated , but there are precious few of us to take an interest in any form racing and we need your support to be able to continue.
Mike
PS .
As far as the boat under discussion in this thread is concerned , I have no concern with the outcome for that particular boat, my post is aimed at the rulemakers and those that apply them
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Well I can only applaude you guys for jumping in and doing what you are, all 3 of you, commercial or not. To take on projects like yours in the current climate takes balls. I am looking forward to seeing the boats on the water, it is something I can only wish I could do. As for my rule comment, and I do not want to drag up the past but what was the problem with your 26 years ago?
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Im re branding pepper spray as Arsehole Repellant.im going to make a fortune.
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