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Old 06-01-2009, 04:39 PM   #21
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Brians second phantom that I raced after him, was not only fast but phenomenal in the rough. I remember one particular rough race in Margate when after the first lap we were in front of some of the 4 litres and most of the 2 litre boats. We then started to take on water on the second lap and had to retire. Steve Baker was at the race and examined it . We had split it . He said we probably did the damage at the previous London-Brighton race. Anyone remember that one where nearly every lifeboat was called out between Ramsgate and Brighton, for the second leg. Anyway Steve built us a new Hull and put the existing race deck on in time for the next race. It never did handle quite so well in the rough after that.
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:53 PM   #22
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Gina's mechanic. Assume we are talking Doug Ashley?
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kin ell fire View Post
Hi Guys well just joined and saw all the talk on the Phantom 16 named Kin Ell Fire. ok here,s the story it,s true why i was the owner and builder !

ok we go back to 1984 i got steve baker to make me a very special phantom 16 ft race deck. she was 50% glass fibre and 50% kevlar she also had special raised transom (more about this later).
in 1984 i contacted and met phil rolla in lugana switzerland and got him to make a special 4 blade prop for her. when it arrived i put it on and headed for windermere. the engine had only been ported then but without the rev limiter she would pull 7.5,00 rpm with standard 3 blade sst. ran her on the lake and she pulled 5,800 but felt fast !. to cut a long long story shorter the prop went back to phil 4 times and finally she came back and once more to windermere. 9.600 rpm and she flew. now to the engine. she was given to a mechanic from london who did all the work for AGFA BLUEBIRD as many of you will remember Gina and I was good friends and even navigated for me. the crank rods and pistons went to Cosworth,s the rest various people did various bits i do remeber 1 and half pounds of aluminimum was taken out of her. the head was worked with squish bands etc etc and a small expansion chamber exhaust was fitted hence the cuckoo holes in the leg !
on cosworth,s dyno she showed 115 bhp after that she was fitted with larger carbs and many other goody,s. I ran it at the cancer research race and she annihalated even the 115 merc,s and even two 150,s won that race and finally took her to spped week 1985 i wasnt allowed to run her officially but at lunch time i ran her with a chop on the lake and one way recorded 96 mph return was slightly slower at 91 . she went into store as my new phantom arrived (see seapee) and the rest many of you will know.
1986 world champion 1.3
national champion 1.3
1987 world champion 1.3
european champion 1.3
national champion 1.3

all true guys and yes i am still living healthy and still love my boats still talk to Gina Campbell and remember the good times.

Brian Eastham
Hopefully still smoking Hamlet Cigars!

Remember that race in Margate, you had Gina in the back, and you couldn't get the bow tank to work?

It was the only time that year I saw you!!!

Good memories - Now can I have all your trophies because we have found you were running an illegal engine. oh - and I owe you some money for the car phone back in '87!!
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Hopefully still smoking Hamlet Cigars!

Remember that race in Margate, you had Gina in the back, and you couldn't get the bow tank to work?

It was the only time that year I saw you!!!

Good memories - Now can I have all your trophies because we have found you were running an illegal engine. oh - and I owe you some money for the car phone back in '87!!
PS send my love to Graham! I don't carry a gun any more!!
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:29 PM   #25
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96mph in a Phantom16, with <150hp.......righto.

We must be talking KPH again.
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:37 PM   #26
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what was that Kasier Chiefs song.........
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:54 PM   #27
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Brian spent a boatload of money developing and running that P16.

I suspect that the figure that Pecky gave JF isn't far off.

Back in the 80's - it was all about spending money and developing.

Neil Holmes took catamaran design to a new level -
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:51 PM   #28
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With a given design, big budgets buy a few extra mph, but they won't buy miracles, or defiance of the laws of physics.
Winning in IIIB with an engine that sounds like it beloned in ski racing only means the scroots failed.
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
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With a given design, big budgets buy a few extra mph, but they won't buy miracles, or defiance of the laws of physics.
Winning in IIIB with an engine that sounds like it beloned in ski racing only means the scroots failed.
Prop design bought miracles.

Eastham's boat ran 56 mph.

20 odd years later we ran 81 mph with the same motor and different prop.
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller View Post
96mph in a Phantom16, with <150hp.......righto.

Must have been a Steve Hutch race engine
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:14 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciao View Post
Prop design bought miracles.

Eastham's boat ran 56 mph.

20 odd years later we ran 81 mph with the same motor and different prop.
Prop, maybe, yes. 56, no miracle. 81mph was in a multihull, and *probably* less power...horses for courses.
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Old 08-01-2009, 12:08 PM   #32
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ref kin ell fire

Hey Guys lets clear a few things up before it gets too heated.

1 the original kin ell fire was built by myself and steve baker it had a 85 yam but was tuned to such that it really did do what i said, if you dont believe it fair enough.

2 it didnt cost the figure Graham Peck said but it did cost quite a bit i am not sure now oh much but it was a lot. Graham and I became friends and hope still are ! (ask him how his rear end is ! remember going up for the trophy Graham ??

3 John (ciao) was quite correct in all he has said but to clear up the engine on Kin Ell Fire no1 (cancer research) was the tuned engine and was orginally an 85 and did exactly as said and yes Doug Ashley was the mechanic who did a fantastic job on it( Hi Doug ) after Doug it was further tuned and altered by a motorcycle tuner in Preston who at the time was tuning yams for Mitsui Machinery

4 Kin Ell Fire(1) did do that speed on Windermere and i drove it and yes it was hairy as she was twisting all over the place which is why she did not or rather I dare not push her on the second leg back hence the lower speed.

5 Kin Ell Fire (2) was a true UKOBA spec Boat (yes John even the Engine ha ha)
After Guernsey race Europeans the nice gentlemen in blue overalls pulled her to bits and I took her home in six cardboard boxes (bas*^&ds) she did do that speed on speed week and it is recorded and i have the certificate.
As (seapee) has said She was a phenomenal boat in the Rough and this is where she scored and seemed very fast to everyone She could plow through anything and on full chat just ask any of the guys running in class above with Big Merc,s that was racing then ? or ask the Finland Champions in the ARGOCATS In Guernsey they thought Kin Ell Fire had WINGS fitted.

6 seriously Guys I didnt come on here to stir up trouble I made many great friends during my time and I hope they remember the hamlet smoking Guy from Lancashire ( yes john still smoking them) (And our graham ask.s where you are NOW living as he would like to come and see you ***** HE HE what fun Eh John ? rolling around the toilets in that hotel on prize night .

Many Thanks Guys for all the good times and appreciation to the following

Graham Peck great guy loads of fun
Doug Ashley fond memorys Doug
John Ciao great guy lots of fun
seapee gentlemen great to hear they had the pleasure of her kin
ell fire
phil Rolla now this guy really can make a prop!
Mike standring lots of fun could be serious sometimes

anybody else who remembers me thanks guys and gals great times

And after all guys I wouldnt have won all those championships if it wasnt true !

Brian Eastham
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Old 08-01-2009, 12:11 PM   #33
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I Do John and many like that listen john my email is
salmonfly3990@yahoo.co.uk drop me a line and i will give you my number for a natter mate#
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Old 08-01-2009, 12:28 PM   #34
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So to clarify, 20 odd years ago, you had a Phantom 16, with a single 1100cc Yamaha, running a 96mph pass on Windermere? and it was recorded?

Reckon we need to see a scan of the certificate, cos that makes a mockery of Steve Hutchinsons awsome 97mph speed on coniston last year, in a Phantom 20 with over 300hp.

No disrespect, but that has to be KPH, not MPH.
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Old 08-01-2009, 01:52 PM   #35
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I have to admit to being a little dubious, that is pretty bloody quick. It means the guys that were runing 2.5 Mercs with around 240hp with lightweight 16 Phantoms over the last few years at Coniston were slow as hell. Also the VP1.3 guys that were running WELL tuned 90 Yams with 55 Gearcases and Aramat 16's or super lightweight T850's couldn't get over 70, so an offshore boat with seats and all the crap that was bolted to the deck etc etc An air entrapment MOD VP went 76.70 with a Nissan 90.
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Old 08-01-2009, 02:41 PM   #36
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Interesting stuff

I wonder how much power to weight could play a part here.

on a single run, if you can get the motor to pull the revs and turn a tall enough prop then why not.....

Just thinking of the analogy of little caterhams like the RS's (1000hp / tonne!!) and superlights (only 1.6's) that can annihilate supercars with over double the engine capacity and gg's

My old man used to run a crusader 19 with an 85 yam and a tall chopper (took ages to actually get on plane!). Really wasnt that differet speed wise to both the rings we have had even with 2.4 200's, 3.4 275's and 2.0 xr2's
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:19 PM   #37
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reply to Jon Fuller and the rest Kin Ell fire

Jon PLEASE read the reply again !
honestly guys dont mix things

1 KIN ELL FIRE NUMBER 1 TUNED ENGINE COULD NOT RACE LEGALLY RAN AT SPEED WEEK UNOFFICIALLY DID RUN AT LUNCHTIME BREAK UNOFFICIALLY NOT RECORDED BECAUSE IT WAS UNOFFICIAL! AT 96 ONE WAY 91 RETURN MPH
If anybody remebers I think Margaret and Bert Hopwood the speed week officials they may remember !

Now Jon KIN ELL FIRE NUMBER 2 NOT TUNED STANDARD MOTOR 90 HP
RACE SPEC DIFFERENT BOAT STANDARD ENGINE DID RUN OFFICIALLY AND I HAVE THE CERTIFICATE AT 56 MPH DIFFERENT BOAT

BOTH HAD A ROLLA SURFACE FOUR BLADE PROP


Seriously Guys all i ever wanted to do here was confirm what the boat on ebay was
It was put into store in 1998 until 2004 then sold to one man who altered the engine back to near standard as could be except for internals and carbs
after that god knows what happened to it

Jon im sorry you dont beleive what that tuned engine did the hull was as light as a feather and had nothing inside her i sat on a board between the centre rails and i can tell you jon it was hairy after that it was fitted and kitted and ran well for many years after
even if the timings was incorrect that day and of course they was verbal not recorded she was seriously fast Jon i remeber the needle on the tacho was hovering at just under 9,000 and the guys onshore had never seen a rooster tail as i threw up that day but without a wake as all there was in the water was the prop.

Brian Eastham
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:16 AM   #38
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One has to ask why it was unnoficial. you could have done a certificate of performance, and silenced the doubters.

I don't have time to do the exact math right now, but the Levi formula (by which Steve Baker swears) dictates that to double your speed, you must quadruple the power.

Now, obviously, 96 isn't double of 56, but just as an example. to take the 90hp 56mph P16 up to 112mph would require at least 360hp, and that's if you could keep the bow up.
I would say that as a guestimate, you would need circa 275hp to achieve 100mph. ..from a 1100cc 3 cyl Yam??

Go figure.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:34 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller View Post
I don't have time to do the exact math right now, but the Levi formula (by which Steve Baker swears) dictates that to double your speed, you must quadruple the power.

Now, obviously, 96 isn't double of 56, but just as an example. to take the 90hp 56mph P16 up to 112mph would require at least 360hp, and that's if you could keep the bow up.
I would say that as a guestimate, you would need circa 275hp to achieve 100mph. ..from a 1100cc 3 cyl Yam??

Go figure.
Whilst not suggesting I support the claims Jon, but isn't the reality logarithmic as opposed to linear? I.e. in your example, the last 85 hp wouldn't actually be worth as much speedwise as the preceding 85 hp.

Thats it, I've just hurt my brain now
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:12 AM   #40
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The Levi formual is OK - but for comparing fairly like for like. I use a similar formula that has been modifed to a large extent, having more factors involved and covering more aspects of set-up. This works much better for real high performance and lighter hulls.

Still don't see how you can get these speeds from the package, as it would blow all the efficiency values - but if I had the time it would be interesting to see what power / weight would be needed from my calcs. Then tie in with absolute best factors for propellers / engine height etc.
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