Phoney Phantoms (in this case Chaudron)

[JamesM]

Mr Chaos isnt on form tonight is he!!!!

 

[JamesM]

Mr Chaos??????

 

[chaudron]

i really can't understand the logic of building a "light" boat and then putting engines weighing over a tonne and a half in it

 

[JamesM]

Yeah your right thats why they make drag boats out of iron and concrete

 

[JamesM]

Why would you make a boat heavier than it needs to be. The engines Jon chose for his 28 are not the lightest option nore the most powerfull but give both good power and economy. So why add extra weight in the hull construction that will lose performance and cost more at the pumps. What would the benefits be? Strength? I'm sure Jonny's boat is plenty strong enough, I believe its aramat/balsa construction, might be wrong about that? Either way though proper Phantoms are frickin well strong whatever they're made from!!!

 

[JamesM]

Either way though proper Phantoms are frickin well strong whatever they're made from!!!

'cept cheese or wool, but I dont think Steve ever made any out of cheese or wool

 

[Jon Fuller]

i really can't understand the logic of building a "light" boat and then putting engines weighing over a tonne and a half in it

I honestly don't know what to say to you.

Should Steve have added a another ton of 'lay-up' to make it handle better in the rough?

 

[JamesM]

Is your boat aramat/balsa Jon?

 

[Jon Fuller]

The hull is all glass/Balsa, the deck is glass/aramat/balsa

and without the pig iron, it's quite light.

And extremely strong

 

[chaudron]

my initial post was that the chaudron 28 might be a bit heavier than the 28 phantom. Chaudron are definitely not heavier than they need to be but they sure are built very strong which is very appreciated when the waters get rough, as happens often around here and you still want to push the throttles down.....the phantom 28 which is in Malta is very light and "flies" a lot but it is a great boat as well, rides very well but suffers a bit in the rough. In tha case of Jonny's boat with a 3 tonne weight that would blast through huge waves with ease..we have a Chaudron 28 here with a single V-12 Lamborghini which weighs around that weight and it is a blast to drive in the big seas, I have been in it and could not believe the ride for a 28 boat

 

[Jon Fuller]

V12 Lambo is all aluminium, I would think that boat would be around 2 tons.

Before correcting Steve's designs, and advising a ride in the all conquering Chaudron, you sir should have a ride in the Ultra light, all aramat (Kevlar) 'Race' P28 'BRUT', with twin 2.5 EFI's, and have a run in the rough. this boat is 'as Steve intended it'.

The ride/pitch stability of that boat is simply amazing!

Mr Baker didn't just build a few boats and sell them, He raced himself for many years, in many classes, and the boats were developed upon that racing career/experience.

His success is fairly well documented, and VERY envyable.

If he says a light boat is the way to go, in ALL sea conditions, then that is how it is, at least in his design boats it is.

BTW, is 73mph, the best speed you've ever seen on your GPS?

 

[Jon Fuller]

my initial post was that the chaudron 28 might be a bit heavier than the 28 phantom. Chaudron are definitely not heavier than they need to be but they sure are built very strong which is very appreciated when the waters get rough,

Believe me when I say, you would not break a Balsa core P28, you don't have to build a boat heavy, to be strong, you just have to build it right, that is the hard bit.

 

[JamesM]

What meant by a balsa core? My floor is made from sheet ply and has air gaps between the floor and hull bottom. Is a balsa core a solid floor made from balsa with out the air gaps. This I would imagine would be very light but also very stiff. What about the balsa upper deck? Maybe you could do a seperate thread and have piccies and stuff.

 

[Captain Chaos]

If SB says a light boat is the way to go, in ALL sea conditions, then that is how it is, at least in his design boats it is.

Jonny, I think its also fair to say that this may not be the ONLY method with which to produce a successfull boat

But in this instance (Mr Chaudron), I find it rather daring of you to question the Knowledge of a man much admired by racing & boating folk alike and also; more importantly designed your boat! I think he'll know more than anyone who copied it!

Having recently got a 21ft boat built from the orginal Phantom tooling, I can tell you that I'd give my right-arm to speak to Steve Baker and ask his advice on how to rig it. Moreso, the boat was manufactured using all his original schedules & techniques (or as close as was possible).

As it is, I've had to settle to speaking to some of his "deciples" through boatmad

If you listen, you can learn alot here!

 

[JamesM]

And you can take the piss n stuff too

 

[Captain Chaos]

Maybe you could do a seperate thread and have piccies and stuff.

he's got some nice pictures.

And you can take the piss n stuff too

thats what we do best

 

[Jon Fuller]

What meant by a balsa core?

With the Balsa core, or sandwich construction, the skin of the boat is made up of an outer laminate of say 4, 5, or 6, 8 or 10mm (depending on which boat, and where on the boat) and an inner laminate of maybe half, or a third of the thickness of the outer, and these inner and outer layers of glass/kevlar, are separated by a thickness (again depending on many things) of end grain Balsa wood, that is, many, many 1" square pieces of balsa cut so the grain is running from one laminate to the other. In that plane, (grain end on) it is almost imposible to crush, and adhears very well with the laminates.

in my boat, the balsa is either 1/2 inch thick, (in the bottom, and deck king plank) 1/4 inch thick (topsides and outer deck)

This construction forms a very stiff structure indeed, and it's extremely rare to find a boat build in this way that has any cracks or crazing in the gelcoat, as so little flexing occurs.

In some of the OCR boats, the Balsa core in the running surface is 1" thick, which makes for a very stiff bottom indeed, and this maintains the desired hull form in the most extreme conditions.

Apparently, the big Buzzi's have as much as 1.5-2" of balsa in their running surface.

 

[Captain Chaos]

'dude

i think theres some of jonnys 'core in the gallery section of the main page?

 

[JamesM]

Cool, There is a P21 in weston called 'The Edge', rigged by Niel Holmes, that is aramat and balsa and I've been told was the lightest P21 ever built!!!

I hear of light weight and heavy built Phantoms, seems if balsa is both strong and light why have a heavey built boat. Or is to get more strength from just a glass construction as balsa is expensive. Did they make lightweight glass only boats too or is a lightweight a balsa boat?

 

[chaudron]

I will repeat again that I never said the Chaudrons were heavy, I just said that they are built a bit heavier than the Phantoms. Fully rigged and with fuel in it my Chaudron 33 weighs less than 3 tonnes, which is definitely not heavy. And also Steve Baker did not build all his boats alike, he built light boats and he built heavier boats, so he also must have seen the merit in building a different boat to suit different needs.
The Chaudron are also balsa cored in the hull sides and deck, the bottom is not cored for obvious reasons, although some boat builders have built cored bottoms with success.
AND I NEVER INTENDED TO SAY ANYTHING AGAINST STEVE BAKER, if it has been interpreted so, the only thing which I will say in regard to Steve Baker is that he is one of the top designers/boat builders of all time and he built a top boat.
But I will say again that in rough water the Chaudron runs better than the Phantom 28 which is in Malta. Now in the case of Jonny's boat that would be a different story. Look at the Powerboat P1 championships, its the guys with the bigger and heavier boats who are winning....the top US boats, Pantera and Donzi were getting trashed by the heavier CUV's...in Supersport class a 7 tonne boat built in Italy was winning all the races