Props and Questions

verytricky

Large member
Joined
May 28, 2005
Messages
2,660
Location
On the farm
Cruising area
England/France & Med
Boat name
Seahorse.org
Boat make
a V24 and a SLOW unstable ICE Bladerunner
Engines(s)
2x300 promax, 320 Volvo
I need to get up more revs. I am 45HP under what the engines can produce!

My prop man says:

Dont change or work the current P28 Bravo1 props. Buy a new set of P26 Bravo1's.

Thoughts?

Where is the best place to buy P26 Bravo1 props?
 
Maybe a better way to go for more speed is the keep your 28p props and do a few mods to boost the power of your engines to turn your 28p props. What are 2 new props going to cost you? Spend it on more power!
But then again I have sun stroke and may not be thinking right in my labonza.
 
Hey Mr Rob How'd the marshan go??
 
Well! The trip started with a series of Mini Drama's!
1. Dead Battery even though I checked it before I left
2. Live wire for powerlift melted while charging the battery on jump leads from my Jeep.
3. Had you manually lover the life that meant ATF all over my floor.
4. Got in the water and only had reverse so I had to alter the gear cable while drifting in to the fleet.
5. Forgot to replace the clip for the control cables and the throttle cable popped out half way across portland harbour.
6. Negative lead kept popping off the battery.
7. I dont think its sucking in water correctly as the water pressure isnt as it should be. Only 7-10psi @ WOT.
8. Temp Gauge not working.

I only managed 66mph. But having said that I dont know if I could handle 75+mph. I got very good bow rise but the lift was down in the water but not that far. Handling was pretty good I thought but then again this is the only high performance boat I have ever piloted.
I am going to book my engine into the local boat shop and have it a good inspection and have it Dyno'ed too. After that I am gonna strip in the entire hull down and then restore the hull. Going to spend the entire winter refitting it to a high standard as it pretty shabby and bodged for want of a better word.
 
Sounds like you had fun then!! You always get something go wrong on the first time out mate! My Xr2 only has 10-12psi water pressure when moving!:mad:
 
10-12Psi is spot on a WOT. but 8-10 is low and it doesn't appear to be pumping much water at idle. Might be time for an impeller change! I know it has been start out of water a couple of times but never for more than a few seconds but I dont know when the last impeller change was done. But I think it maybe damaged. I am thinking of getting a new hydrulic pump for my power lift or see if I can just replace the motor for it.
 
MrRob said:
Maybe a better way to go for more speed is the keep your 28p props and do a few mods to boost the power of your engines to turn your 28p props. What are 2 new props going to cost you? Spend it on more power!
But then again I have sun stroke and may not be thinking right in my labonza.

How do you spend £650 on more power?

I ran the engines with Ultimate, which gives the best performance, and I still hit the barrier at 5100, even with the side scoops on, pushng in more air.

I will put in a top scoop, and put back the balanced bravo1 28's and try again, but if I am missing 20% of my rev range, I am sure as hell missing power!

A straight swap from the 28P to the 26P Bravo1's would raise the engine revs by 650RPM giving me approximately 5750 RPM, excluding the additional speed through the water affecting the RMP. The rough estimate is an additional 15% of 290 HP = 44 HP which is currently missing due to not reaching the max power of the engine. An extra 40+HP should make some impact on the speed reached, as will the complete removal of the remaining antifoul coating...

( please feel free to poke holes in the argument - I am on a learning curve here! )
 
I dont think air scoops is the answer. If you want to force air in then you need to turbo/super charge. I doubt that air flow is that restricted that is effect the performance.
 
Tricky i agree with you. you definately need to select a prop that will allow you to use all your revs / power. you could get your existing props worked down to around a 26" which i would have thought would be cheaper you could also maybe get them thinned out a bit. however i dont know alot about props so you should give prop revolutions in poole a call or maybe pm the guy on this forum i think he's called streamlined props

as for the top air scoop again i also think this could help you if you direct this air direct onto the air filter to create a sort of ram air effect thus forcing the air into the engine however more air plus more fuel increases power so you may need to run a little richer to compensate for the extra air. this works on cars but not sure of the effect on a boat when water spray could eaisly find its way to the air filter.
 
Dude, the blade has outboards not inboards. RAM air doesnt work on the mercury two stroke outboard motors, they are desinged to run in still air.

You need to direct the air into the scoops either side of the outboard engine cowls as if they were running in open air as they normally do on most boats!!!
 
See, the outboards are placed in a vaccume. The bulk of the boat is in the way of the engines getting air.

If you remove the scoops completely, and run it as you would your 'ordinary' outboard, with just the standard outboard engine cover, the boat wont go over 60MPH!

Place the scoops back on and you get 80MPH

Thus the main thrust of thinking that air flow is causing part of the lack of revs from the engine...


I am still going to build the rear air scoop and test it out...
 
Marc, what effect have the additional scoops made on the engines so far? I have to say I am sceptical of lack of air being the problem. I'll happily concede I could be wrong, but I'm still sceptical. The NACA ducts along the side are reasonably sized, plus having a pair of engines mounted behind a canopy or other obstruction is very common - look at almost any circuit boat for example.

If you are convinced airflow is the problem, IMVHO I would rig a few manometers to get a feel for what's going on:
1 in each engine cowling near, but not in the engine inlet
1 per engine outside the cowling, but inside the 'bucket'

If you find a problem, I suspect an internal mod either to the bucket or the engine cowlings to better control the flow would be rewarding.

Have you proven the 60mph figure without the bucket?

I don't think telltales will give you a correct view - there is going to be a huge amount of turbulent flow going on, plus the NACA ducts are going to have vortexes on entry - so it might look like they're flapping all over the places just because they're in a vortex swirling them around. NACA ducts are amazingly efficient.

How deep are the motors on the transom? I know before you've said they high, but how high exactly, especially in comparision to the race version (Do you have water pressure gauges fitted?)

Does it get on the plane easily and go round corners OK?

I'm also slightly surprised by the choice of prop - bravo 1's are traditionally a high load prop - a traditional favourite for a non stepped inboard powered V hull boat. Again, it might be that this prop has been proven to be a good choice - or it might be it was just whatever was on the shelf at the time.

I'm not familiar with how these boats run - do they like a fair bit of trim to get the bow up or do they run very flat?

I noticed the boat also has antifoul on it - IMVHO I think the effect of the antifouling could be signficant. On a boat like the B23 & V24 (I use these for comparison just because I've spend a fair bit of time looking at their undersides).

The steps role is 2 founded.
Firstly it aerates the water - this effectively lowers the density of the water and also controls the nature of the flow as well. I can't remember all the theory - it's about laminar and turbulent flow & boundary layers.
Secondly it provides pitch stability. By running the boat on 2 (or more) points, of contact in an efficient way, as the boat goes faster the pitch stability of the boat stays the same. It means the boat can work well across a very broad speed range. A normal V hull you have to keep moving the CG back (or trimming the motor) as speed rises which compromises low and mid range performance. It especially compromises pitch stability - I'm a bit worried about burty trying to do 90mph in his phantom since to make the boat stable at 90mph in the flat will, IMVHO massively compromise it's handling in any kind of chop.

Have you checked that you are actually getting WFO on the motors? It's possible the throttles are maladjusted and they're not opening fully? And that the ignition system is fully advancing the timing?

How 'clean' are the gearcases? I notice they've been painted - flow over the gearcases can be critical to prop efficiency - The ideal drive system for prop efficiency has nothing in front of the props, that's partly why arnesons are so good. If the drives are pitted you could start suffering blow out.

Refer to John G's comment about the race and pleasures boats running the props in opposite directions and higher X dimension - both areas worth exploring.

How did you achieve the 45hp figure? The Torque/RPM curve on e 2 stroke is typically very non linear, therefore for 15% rpm change it won't be likely to equate to a similar proportional change in power - probably a much bigger change in power.

Also, have you validated that the RPM gauges are calibrated correctly?

Please could you post the following so I can do some sums:
What is you current max RPM and what is the rated max rpm range for the motors?
What is the gear ratio of the engines?
What top speed have you you've seen, on GPS? (Was this in a tide/wind and what direction were they compared to you)
How much does the boat weigh?
What year are the motors and how many hours do they have?
Am I correct they are the 300PM and not the 300X?

There are 2 people who I would be interested to get some input from to explore ideas - Lorne, who of course designed the boat and Neil Holmes, who has had 'some' success racing Lorne's 3 pointer designs.

:cheers:
Matt
 
Max RPM on both guages is 5100
I do not know the gear ratio.
The top I have seen on GPS was 82MPH, high tide with little wind top end of southampton water
Motors are 1999
I dont know the hours. But the boat was out of the water on hard for 18 months
They are the 300 PM and not the PMX.
 
OK, immediately something doesn't add up.
I believe your motors have a 1.62:1 or a 1.75:1 gear ratio, most likely 1.62.

With 1.62 ratio & 5100 rpm on 28" props and 0% slip you would only be seeing 83mph. (And slip is never, ever 0. Usually 10%-15%)

Reverse calculating it, using an assumed slip of 10%, and that the props really are 28" and the gearbox is 1.62, with 82mph as the speed points at genuine 6000rpm on the motors.
3 steps are needed:

1) Confirm the speed - but I think approx 80mph is entirely reasonable so it's not too much of a suspect
2) Validate the gear ratio - I'm not sure what ratios these engines come with - a quick look on google suggests 1.62 for sportsmaster gearcase - plus the 1.75 ratio would throw the figures even further out.
3) Validate the prop pitch really is 28"
4) Check the rev counters are accurate.

My top suspicions are 3 or 4. If the props are currently with a prop guy get him to check the pitch is really 28, in which case it really points the finger at inaccurate rev counters - they are usually adjustable for a variety of different engines, someone could easily have put them on the wrong setting.
 
Matt said:
4) Check the rev counters are accurate.

Agreed, without knowing this is accurate, everything else is pointless.

I have an optical/digital Tacho, accuracy +/- 1rpm, that aughta do.
 
NACA Duct.... Providing it of the correct design not some half breed @ NACA duct will increase the presure not create a depression. as I say it should be the correct shape not a home grown effort. You can easily see the correct profile on the underside of most jet aircraft on the wing tips. Where the provide a +ve pressure. Having seen various types employed on boats over the years not all will work by the fact of the design. I'll try and find some pics but they are available on the NASA web site which replaced NACA many years ago.
 
Matt said:
I'm a bit worried about burty trying to do 90mph in his phantom since to make the boat stable at 90mph in the flat will, IMVHO massively compromise it's handling in any kind of chop.

Don't worry about me dude, thats why i have a jack plate so i can dump the engine down to have the handling in the chop and also for hole shot. all i find i have to do is put water into the bow tank at over 75mph and then keep increasing it as the speed builds. this is probably dude to the amount of setback i'm running as the c of g moves back as the speed increases
 
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