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Old 19-06-2010, 05:22 PM   #1
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Clarification of max speed for Historics

This has been hanging around for a while and now needs serious clarification before Harwich/Cowes etc.

A potential racer has asked me for clarification of the speed limit on Historic boats taking part in Marathon Racing and I have no idea what this is anymore.

I know for certain that in the Class Classification rules that came out of the RYA/UIM last November a speed limit of 50 knots appeared from nowhere. This has now been taken off the latest Class Classification sheet as published by JM on the BPRC Cowes site.

However, the current Rules and Regulations do include the following:

3.2 SPEED - UIM 1200.3.2
All competing craft must be capable of exceeding 40 knots, except for Historic Class boats. Historic Class boats must have a speed capability of 30 knots up to a maximum of 50 knots.


So does that mean that Historic boats taking part at Harwich/Cowes etc can only race at a maximum speed of 50 Knots and if so how will that be regulated? This is urgent.
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Old 19-06-2010, 06:25 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMan View Post
This has been hanging around for a while and now needs serious clarification before Harwich/Cowes etc.

A potential racer has asked me for clarification of the speed limit on Historic boats taking part in Marathon Racing and I have no idea what this is anymore.

I know for certain that in the Class Classification rules that came out of the RYA/UIM last November a speed limit of 50 knots appeared from nowhere. This has now been taken off the latest Class Classification sheet as published by JM on the BPRC Cowes site.

However, the current Rules and Regulations do include the following:

3.2 SPEED - UIM 1200.3.2
All competing craft must be capable of exceeding 40 knots, except for Historic Class boats. Historic Class boats must have a speed capability of 30 knots up to a maximum of 50 knots.


So does that mean that Historic boats taking part at Harwich/Cowes etc can only race at a maximum speed of 50 Knots and if so how will that be regulated? This is urgent.
ML.
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I would have thought it would be up to the organisers of that race to monitor the speeds - an average over the course would give you an idea ........ and if that's the UIM rule they would have to stick to it?
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Old 19-06-2010, 08:13 PM   #3
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I would have thought it would be up to the organisers of that race to monitor the speeds - an average over the course would give you an idea ........ and if that's the UIM rule they would have to stick to it?
But the rule is ambiguous Cookee. It doesnít actually say that the average speed over the course must not exceed 50 knots, it just says that boats must not exceed 50 knots so itís wide open to abuse and protests. As usual itís a grey statement and needs clear clarification.

Simply saying boats must not exceed 50 knots is not good enough for anyone wanting to race. For what period and over what distance is the question.

So, as with P1 in 2007, you could get a number of fast historic boats racing their socks off to the finish line (Dry Martini?) and then stopping to ensure that they have not exceeded their max speed which would be an absolute farce. And donít tell me that wouldnít happen because everyone saw it happen at Cowes in that year.

I will probably be shown to be wrong but I would suspect this is a rule promoted and brought in by COPOC and not thought through clearly.
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Old 20-06-2010, 08:30 AM   #4
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Max Speed

Talk about a rod for your own back!

Before the UIM tempter for a World Series surfaced,`H` classic had 50mph max average tagged to it,presumably for historic cabin class boats.

Now here we are with the likes of Dry Martini IV,Apache,Cinzano,Bounty Hunter III,Red FPT,D2S????? all classic boats wanting to race and most choosing to lump for A or B class,because Historic is written to cater for the gentleman racer boats and not the vintage whizzer.

Vintage whizzers have to go in A or B etc,otherwise you start hacking things about to have a Historic `Open` class,and with 2 months to go,no way.

Another case of boat parameters causing a headache.Same old record,the more you break it down,the more problems you get.

Can you see D2S pitch up with 1000HP mercruisers and a fully fitted cabin layout (which was considered albeit not for racing),and calmly pronounce `I`m a historic cabin boat` don`t you know,whilst JF strides manfully down the pontoon,rulebook in hand.Goodness,a digi pic would rival that other famous snap!
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Old 21-06-2010, 05:34 PM   #5
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Can you see D2S pitch up with 1000HP mercruisers and a fully fitted cabin layout (which was considered albeit not for racing),and calmly pronounce `I`m a historic cabin boat` don`t you know,whilst JF strides manfully down the pontoon,rulebook in hand.Goodness,a digi pic would rival that other famous snap!
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Old 21-06-2010, 07:07 PM   #6
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Can you see D2S pitch up with 1000HP mercruisers and a fully fitted cabin layout
Now that really is funny!

You're drifting into the realms of fantasy now Graham.
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Old 21-06-2010, 07:24 PM   #7
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The rules on the UIM web site don't say anything about 50 mph maximum. The rules on the Cowes 2010 web site say 50 mph maximum. Our entry, Dry Martini, was accepted as a historic entry. Cinzano chose to enter in class B.

If there is a speed limit, how will it be enforced?

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Old 21-06-2010, 07:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by lohring View Post
The rules on the UIM web site don't say anything about 50 mph maximum. The rules on the Cowes 2010 web site say 50 mph maximum. Our entry, Dry Martini, was accepted as a historic entry. Cinzano chose to enter in class B.

If there is a speed limit, how will it be enforced?

Lohring Miller
It will not be enforced.

The 2010 Marathon Rules have been changed via clerical errors - as opposed to an individual having a bright idea.

The British Powerboat Festival will allow all Historic Race Boats to compete with other Marathon Classes - No speed Limit.

This is the end of this topic - The BPRC Cowes Race Instructions will indicate as such.
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Old 21-06-2010, 10:19 PM   #9
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It will not be enforced.

The 2010 Marathon Rules have been changed via clerical errors - as opposed to an individual having a bright idea.

The British Powerboat Festival will allow all Historic Race Boats to compete with other Marathon Classes - No speed Limit.

This is the end of this topic - The BPRC Cowes Race Instructions will indicate as such.
Thank you for the clarification. I will pass this info on to the party making the enquiry.

He will be pleased that his enquiry has brought about the interesting "2010 Marathon Rules have been changed via clerical errors" ammendment.
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Old 22-06-2010, 12:15 AM   #10
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Looks like "Historic Unlimited" could be the way forward. Duna
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Old 22-06-2010, 10:05 AM   #11
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Looks like "Historic Unlimited" could be the way forward. Duna
Agreed!

Anyone who didn't take advantage of these pathetically thought through historic rules would be a fool.

Well done RYA, another master stroke!

How can a National Authority be so totally unaware of the obvious? It beggars belief.

I totally f*king give up.
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Old 22-06-2010, 10:48 AM   #12
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Looks like "Historic Unlimited" could be the way forward. Duna
Troublemaker.

Anyway, you would have been OK on the old rules because that Orange thingy of yours can't do more than 50 knots!!
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Old 22-06-2010, 11:22 AM   #13
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Troublemaker.

Anyway, you would have been OK on the old rules because that Orange thingy of yours can't do more than 50 knots!!
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Salut Mike, well I might have to consider a slight modification on the set-up if the rules allow a little bit more speed considering my past performance !! just as well the "Orange thingy" is registered as the "SLUG" Cheers Duna
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Old 22-06-2010, 12:00 PM   #14
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can we take it that the "H" in the historic numbering was a error as well
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Old 22-06-2010, 05:53 PM   #15
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One more/last point!

In the Cowes 2010 Classic Class Classification chart for H1 there is no mention of CC/HP capacities for Outboards, why?

AGAIN this needs clarification. There were many mono hulls racing in the late 1970ís and early 1980ís using outboards who would be suitable for Marathon. For instance, for sale in Cowes is Cossack, the classic 36ft Benito which not only raced in the late 1970ís and early 1980ís but also ran in the RB84.

Itís current owner Tony Hamilton has asked the question, if a potential customer wishes to purchase this boat and wants to race it at Harwich/Needles/Cowes/RB11 in Marathon as a Classic (Historic 1) boat what is the max CC/HP it can use with Outboards (which it was/is designed to do)or failing no one being able to answer the question would he have to revert to the following rule?

ď10% more engine capacity that the original installation is accepted.Ē
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Old 22-06-2010, 08:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller View Post
Agreed!

Anyone who didn't take advantage of these pathetically thought through historic rules would be a fool.

Well done RYA, another master stroke!

How can a National Authority be so totally unaware of the obvious? It beggars belief.

I totally f*king give up.
Wow you have changed your tune, when I suggested it last year you called me a pot chaser, nice to see that you actually agree with me now...
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Old 22-06-2010, 08:53 PM   #17
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Let's not worry too much......

In my vast experience since 2008(!!!) The historics were limited to 50mph and unlimited in hp/cc. I noticed that the speed had changed to knots but hey, what the hell, we're all in this for the fun of it. As in previous years splinter groups will appear and we'll just have a great time running along with each other. In historic I guess Gee and 747 will battle it out(maybe we'll see Petita 606 too) and the faster later boats will do the same, perhaps Dry Martini, Glenn in the Slug and any others of similar performance.
Points noted above about 'crappy rules' but I suspect it matters less in historic than the other classes??
As one of the potential 'losers' in the removal of the 50 knot/mph limit, I don't mind. I suspect Chris Clayton will say the same. we'll still have a ball
All the best
Jonathan
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Old 23-06-2010, 01:43 AM   #18
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[QUOTE= I suspect Chris Clayton will say the same. we'll still have a ball
[/QUOTE]

I think biffer is the Clayton Boatmad PR guy these days!

Going to Cowes on Thursday with Chris & Bif to lock down the Saturday evening function at the Cowes Corinthian - Should be a damn good night for a non racer who doesn't have to race the next day!
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Old 23-06-2010, 08:17 AM   #19
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Wow you have changed your tune, when I suggested it last year you called me a pot chaser, nice to see that you actually agree with me now...
Idiot.
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Old 23-06-2010, 08:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
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Points noted above about 'crappy rules' but I suspect it matters less in historic than the other classes??
As one of the potential 'losers' in the removal of the 50 knot/mph limit, I don't mind. I suspect Chris Clayton will say the same. we'll still have a ball
All the best
Jonathan
Hi Jonathan.
The point isn't about the Historic fleet being upset. It's about a Fabio Buzzi 'type' character using the open rules intended for historic craft, to achieve superiority over the upper 'modern' pure race classes. Such things will not encourage people to spend the big dosh required on boats for the upper classes if the old classic stuff is allowed to be more competitive through stupid, open rules.

With the greatest respect, Marathon was supposed to be about the main race classes, with Cruiser & Historic being 'add ons' for those who want to take part, not opportunities to get overall results via bad rule / class control.

BTW. Met a guy called Peter Newman (pilot) who seems to know you. He might pop down to Cowes this year, so will say hello.

Jon
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