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Old 11-04-2012, 04:59 PM   #1
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food for thought

clearly splashing is wrong and a lot of boat builders on here will agree , but there seems to be a lot of interest in p 23s/ p25s/ p28s , some race decks, so my point is this, if say 10-15 wanted one on here, isnt there a boat builder on here that could take a mold off of an existing one, and make them, the boats will be kept amongst boat mad enthusiasts and not sold as fakes or copies abroad for profit , that way people can have what they want and not have to worrie about where the molds are or who owns them etc , and then there will be 10-15 phantom build projects in the gallery , just a thought, darren
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:24 AM   #2
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clearly splashing is wrong and a lot of boat builders on here will agree , but there seems to be a lot of interest in p 23s/ p25s/ p28s , some race decks, so my point is this, if say 10-15 wanted one on here, isnt there a boat builder on here that could take a mold off of an existing one, and make them, the boats will be kept amongst boat mad enthusiasts and not sold as fakes or copies abroad for profit , that way people can have what they want and not have to worrie about where the molds are or who owns them etc , and then there will be 10-15 phantom build projects in the gallery , just a thought, darren
There are a set of "official" moulds for the 25 in Norway I think, and we would love to be making them but I really don't see the market being as big as even 10 boats a year for the three models. Look at the history or the 21's, the moulds have passed through several hands and I don't think they are selling like hot cakes I'm afraid.

The general public are happier with bow riders and boats that have many more features - and cheaper! Have a look at the Ranieri range and then look at the prices!
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:37 AM   #3
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Aint that just the truth cookee!

Things have changed so much in the past 20 yearsincluding the boat market.

When I was a kid, all the local mechanics and boys who liked their toys had rings, phantoms and marshans. If you went down to Lee on solent slipway on a summer sunday there would literally be 10-20 boats.

Nowadays, most of the same types of guys have hot wetbikes instead (cheaper to buy and run, easier to store but still quick enough to give you a buzz).

And then there is the rib market, bowriders etc etc. So, as I see it, it is really only the die hard powerboaters that really appreciate the rings / phantoms bernicos etc hence the sales opportunity being so small.

I bet if you could buy a brand new P23 / 25 and 28 - they would sell less than 5 of each per year even if they were well marketed.

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Old 12-04-2012, 10:26 AM   #4
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All too true unfortunately!

When I was a kid Herm harbour would be full of Rings and Phantoms every weekend - now it's all RIBS, wakeboard boats and jet skis! Times and markets change, and those things are just simply more practical for the average person. Nice to know they can all still be smoked by a proper powerboat though! Took great pleasure in wasting a load of high-end jet skis out of the harbour last year
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:56 PM   #5
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We have access to the Phantom 16,18 and 19 moulds but the orders aren't exactly flooding in!
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #6
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Add to that list of the other boats being built in that class like the concordes and return of the marshan 21 et al and when the original moulds were up for sale no one wanted them.
This is the reason in my opinion the whole cottage industry died out. lack of demand.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:37 PM   #7
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Also bare in mind, from 1984, to 2001, you could buy a genuine Phantom 28 directly from Steve Baker, built properly to any spec you liked, or could afford, with the money going to the right person....all legit. Across all those years a total of only 14 sport deck 28's were made/sold.

Kind'a tells ya something.
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Old 14-04-2012, 08:26 PM   #8
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Angry

Even if someone was make Phantoms legitimately under license to original lay up specks, the cost of raw materials, cost labor, cost of manufacture, business rates have risen massively over the years, and then paying 20% VAT to the government for the pleasure of purchase I suspect just kills it dead in the water.

I would have thought if you could halve the current cost and reduce VAT to say 15% although we have a recession you would double sales. There seems to no lack a market for second hand boats.

Unfortunately manufacturing in this country is too costly and dead. Without even the cost of fuel duty. But don’t suppose it will be long before the Chinese start making them to a high quality too. Sad hey, RIP British manufacturing. Oh, and what has the goverment done to help small buisnesses in the UK, F**K All.

Just out of curiosity, how much would a new original spec licensed copy of a 21 be with say a 200 Merc and trailer inc VAT now 35K ????
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Old 14-04-2012, 09:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Docta View Post

I bet if you could buy a brand new P23 / 25 and 28 - they would sell less than 5 of each per year even if they were well marketed.
Thats 15 boats a year...
I would say 5 in total a year would be a more realistic figure, if that! Given current boat sales, look at what you can get on the second hand market for similar money and thats whats killing new boat sales.
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Old 14-04-2012, 11:17 PM   #10
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The few people who do this, do it more for the pleasure of building as as part of a bigger business. basically hard sports boats now here are merely a side line. shame really when you look how well bernico are doing.
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Old 16-04-2012, 08:35 AM   #11
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The few people who do this, do it more for the pleasure of building as as part of a bigger business. basically hard sports boats now here are merely a side line. shame really when you look how well bernico are doing.
I would imagine (I don't know) that the majority of Bernico's work would be ski race boats and those guys seem to have big budgets!
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Old 16-04-2012, 11:44 AM   #12
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I would imagine (I don't know) that the majority of Bernico's work would be ski race boats and those guys seem to have big budgets!
And leisure !!
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Old 16-04-2012, 01:26 PM   #13
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And leisure !!
I thought you would be along! Just for interest what are the proportions Ski Race to Leisure?
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Old 16-04-2012, 10:51 PM   #14
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I thought you would be along! Just for interest what are the proportions Ski Race to Leisure?
Don't know !! I would guess around 60:40 !! And a couple of Offshore race boats as well.
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Old 17-04-2012, 01:57 PM   #15
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It is certainly difficult in selling new boats at the prices they should be - as we found with the Aquavite 23's. Loads of interest and potential - but so often people compare with what is on the second hand market.....

I then designed a new Aquavite 25, stepped hull, double chine, modified spray rails, 4 / 5 seat cockpit. Really exciting boat and very much based around using either a single big (modern) outboard or small block inboard. This was for a UK company - but ultimately they decided it was too much investment for plugs / moulds and then not enough profit in actual boats.

So for now - a project 'on hold'
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Old 17-04-2012, 08:55 PM   #16
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Phantom Reborn

Interestingly, some of the smaller boats from the PHANTOM stable are getting a new lease of life, legitimate, from the original tooling, and from the original build schedule.
Nice website too.

I wish Graham & Co all the very best and am sure Steve will be quietly very pleased to see someone continuing his work.

http://www.phantomsportsboats.co.uk
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Old 18-04-2012, 07:21 AM   #17
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Will they also be making the 23/25? After watching this: http://vimeo.com/28111717 it’s impossible not to want one.

The trend has been the same in Norway over the last 20 years, hard deck sports boats have given way to first centre consoles and later also ribs. We only have Goldfish left in high performance market here that manages to make a sustainable profit, they have made 136 of their 29 fot rib since 2005. Hydrolift have been losing money the last 6 years. Nor-Tech flagged out to the states and has been doing OK.

Would be good to see more hard deck sportboats on the water, and although I love the classic phantom range, it would be good to see boats with modern hulls, design and features.
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Old 18-04-2012, 08:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Interestingly, some of the smaller boats from the PHANTOM stable are getting a new lease of life, legitimate, from the original tooling, and from the original build schedule.
Nice website too.

I wish Graham & Co all the very best and am sure Steve will be quietly very pleased to see someone continuing his work.

http://www.phantomsportsboats.co.uk
The boats will be made in the same factory that's been producing the Phantom 19's for a few years now and the hulls will be to the same high standard.

Petter the moulds for the larger boats are around somewhere and there is a set somewhere in Scandinavia for the 25 with the original and a modified deck, the problem is justifying any sort of investment in the moulds for so few boats. I may have some photos on another computer of them and some contact details?
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Old 18-04-2012, 08:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
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The boats will be made in the same factory that's been producing the Phantom 19's for a few years now and the hulls will be to the same high standard.
Anyone you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookee View Post
Petter the moulds for the larger boats are around somewhere and there is a set somewhere in Scandinavia for the 25 with the original and a modified deck, the problem is justifying any sort of investment in the moulds for so few boats. I may have some photos on another computer of them and some contact details?
This one?
The hull is the 25 and the windscreen is from the hydrolift sportcat:

http://www.finn.no/finn/boat/used/ob...nkode=33115944

I think it looked better with the original deck.
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Old 18-04-2012, 08:57 AM   #20
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Anyone you know?



This one?
The hull is the 25 and the windscreen is from the hydrolift sportcat:

http://www.finn.no/finn/boat/used/ob...nkode=33115944

I think it looked better with the original deck.
The link doesn't seem to be working?
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