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Old 18-08-2009, 09:51 AM   #1
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Splashing

An uknown and huge number of successfull boat designs has been splashed during the years, both in racing and commercial. (I am always carefull to accuse someone that they have made a splash allthough it is 100% obvious). A lot of boat designers put a lot of time and huge investment in a new design and very few of them, at least most of the ones I know, have the economic backup to start a legal case, and the "splasher" gets away with it by the end of the day. I know Cigarette has spent a lot of money in legal cases to get rid of the problem. Besides of the legal aspect it has a big moral aspect too which I think is most important, I think it is bad when the market support the "splasher" by buying the fresh product when it is obvoius that the "splash" is fresh and that it is no doubt about the boat being a right of copy.
I lot of questions around this too:
- For how long does the original designer/builder own the "design" or rights ?
- How much of an original has to be changed before it may be called a splash ? Change of hull, running surface, deck or interior, percentage %
- Where can the design be patented or registered if that is an option ?
If so whats the costs involved

The Phantoms among a lot of(Steve Baker) must have been splashed ? (I am not accusing any one).

I'am just asking because I do not know,any of you guys that has some experience on this ?
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Old 18-08-2009, 11:31 AM   #2
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Don't get me started!
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Old 18-08-2009, 02:26 PM   #3
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The question is... Why do you wanna know??
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Old 18-08-2009, 02:41 PM   #4
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The question is... Why do you wanna know??
Just because I am bothered.
Honestly I did not know that the matter has been discussed severely on this forum earlier (before my membership) and beleive it does not make any sence to go thru it all over again.
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Old 20-10-2009, 12:13 AM   #5
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To patent something it has to be new, inventive, and useful or industrially applicable, hence it'd be very hard to patent a whole boat. I suppose you could use industrial design rights to protect the design but while that'd be easier to get through it's not very useful as it's easy to go around. Besides, i don't think you can protect a design if it's "dictated by its technical function" or something like that, so the only thing you could protect would be it's visual apperance.

correct me if i'm wrong

"Europe

Registered and unregistered Community designs are available which provide a unitary right covering the European Community. Protection for a registered Community design is for up to 25 years, subject to the payment of renewal fees every five years. The unregistered Community design lasts for three years after a design is made available to the public and infringement only occurs if the protected design has been copied.

United Kingdom

In addition to the design protection available under Community designs, UK law provides its own national registered design right and an unregistered design right. The unregistered right, which exists automatically if the requirements are met can last for up to 15 years. The registered design right can last up to 25 years subject to the payment of maintenance fees."
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Old 20-10-2009, 10:58 AM   #6
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So what you are saying is technicaly it's legal?

That doesn't automaticaly make it morally right, particularly when splashers call it their own design when it is quite obvious they wouldn't have a clue where to start in the first place.

Then there's the problem of someone passing off a splash as an original.

On a personal level I don't have a problem with someone taking an out of production model and utilising that as a starting point for a new model of their own but for gods sake be honest about what you have done and don't claim that either you started from scratch and guess what it happened to end up an exact profile purely by luck or that it is an actual original.

Hey and guess what, you could even contact the original designer (assuming still with us) and explain what you want to achieve then you may have a chance of what you are doing coming out right and with the blessing of the original designer.

Note that all of the above relates to out of production models. If it's still in production then you are quite simply stealing a design and endangering the future of the model, designer and current builder.

Now I've got myself a nice cup of coffee and some popcorn and I'm going to sit back and await the arrival of Mr F. He shouldn't be long
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Old 20-10-2009, 11:04 AM   #7
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Now I've got myself a nice cup of coffee and some popcorn and I'm going to sit back and await the arrival of Mr F. He shouldn't be long
Not a chance!
If I've learnt anything it's that some people are so pig thick, it's pointless expecting them to understand, or so greedy, it's pointless expecting them to conform.
Either way, my life is too short.
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Old 20-10-2009, 11:13 AM   #8
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And there was me just about to ask Matt if he could change the thread title to 'Baiting Gingers and Flag Officers' without you knowing
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Old 20-10-2009, 03:46 PM   #9
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I'm not sure what the term "splashing" actually means, I've seen it occasionally on this forum and I just assumed it was to simply copy a design. I'm not saying it's legal or not, just pointing out that afaik it'd be very hard to protect one's design with intellectual property law as a response to lyder.

And of course it's not morally right to benefit from someone else's hard work for personal gain
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Old 21-10-2009, 03:43 PM   #10
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Ive always heard the figure of change is 5% If thats true I wouldnt know.

The biggest way to beat the splashers is for people to not buy their product. But to do that the buyer needs to be in the know and many arent. It must be frustrating.
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Old 21-10-2009, 09:15 PM   #11
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no argument that splashing is not ethical, however let's say i want to buy an original phantom 31/32, i know there is a great mold in the UK belonging to Jon Fuller who does not want to produce any boats from this mold. where does that leave me today? does it leave any alternative other than going to c******* or raf******?
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Old 21-10-2009, 09:53 PM   #12
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does it leave any alternative other than going to c******* or raf******?
Everybody has a choice where/how they spend their monies. No one is forced to buy, or choose anything.

I know my mould was only an example you used, but as the companies mentioned don't make a boat based on the 31'10" I have, I guess it's a dead end. So you'd have to go with a wonky stretched 28 from the malteasers that weighs 37 tons.

Incidentally, I see you're in Malta. I would add that if a company like C********n begun producing the 28 and it's derivitives recently, ie, after the closing of Bakers company, there wouldn't be anything like the bad feeling there is. But the fact is that it didn't happen like that.

Anyway, lets not go round again with this, it's pointless. And the reality is, no one would pay the price for a British built P32 anyways.
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Old 22-10-2009, 01:13 PM   #13
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Just out of interest John what do think it would cost to produce here now?
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Old 22-10-2009, 01:20 PM   #14
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Jon don't rush when you say that nobody would pay the price of a British built P32, which is a lovely boat. remember the sterling is at a very low value as against the Euro, so that present factor (which might change) might attract people living in countries having the Euro currency
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Old 22-10-2009, 03:59 PM   #15
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Just out of interest John what do think it would cost to produce here now?
I think I said somewhere in the Warlord thread that there wouldn't be any change out of 150k, Don't think anything has changed. In fact, I did price a staggered diesel, pretty much exactly the same as Swipewipes for someone, and there wasn't going to be much change out of that figure. And that wasn't building in any return on the considerable investment in time, materials, etc that went into the plug & mould production, or, some headroom for sorting out any issues that might arise with the finished boat.

Also priced it as a twin 300 Verado setup, which came out about 100k.

Both quotes were for full aramat/balsa construction, as per Swipes (and the only way I would build one). I reckon it's pretty umbreakable.

Remember also, that was a known customer who wanted to campaign one, long term, so I was comfortable it would stay in good hands, well away from any release wax!

As I say, building in this country isn't cheap at the best of times.
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Old 22-10-2009, 04:56 PM   #16
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I can see those figures easily fitted out, but I was more asking what would be the cost of taking a mould in the first place and then taking a hull / deck from it? i.e. as Steve used to supply.

Those figures do raise some other questions though. Would there really be £50k difference between outboard power to diesel inboard? What about comparable petrol inboard power?
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Old 22-10-2009, 06:06 PM   #17
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Those figures do raise some other questions though. Would there really be £50k difference between outboard power to diesel inboard? What about comparable petrol inboard power?
The difference was pretty large, agreed, but the cost of the diesels was about 15k each, then the stagger kit, then the ITS gimbles, then the XR Sportmasters (gimbles and drives were 30K for the pair alone) then the custom subframe engine mounting system (quite trick), etc, etc

In comparison, the verado's were about 15k each , and that includes everything, right up to (and including) the steering wheel, and right down to (and including) the battery. They literally come as a complete install kit. Plus the install / rig is a piece of piss in comparison, so far fewer man-hours in the quote. The stagger setup was quite a workup, lots of custom bits n bobs to make it all fit nicely together (remember the motors are not Merc).

It's a pretty narrow boat and the ITS setup buys a lot of transom space that would be lost with regular external steering, making the placement of drives & tabs a pain.

Wouldn't even have considered supplying a bare boat like Steve used to, but then I'm not in the boat production business with premises, equipment and staff on full time money, needing their time filled.
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Old 22-10-2009, 07:11 PM   #18
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Did those quotes include royalty payments to the original designer/builder??



Sorry couldn't resist
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Old 22-10-2009, 07:13 PM   #19
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Did those quotes include royalty payments to the original designer/builder??



Sorry couldn't resist
Yes, to the designer. Though I own the design in actual fact, as I aquired permission from the original customer who commisioned the design back in '82 when I bought the boat. Steve didn't 'own' the Warlord design, he was paid to draw if for Kendon/Baldwin, they were the owners. Steve did the re-draw for us incorporating his later thinking on the running surface, so I would pay him a royalty, though he's not expecting it (should I build one for a third party), as that would seem the 'proper' thing to do.

We of course were the original and only builder of this variant of Baker design.
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Old 22-10-2009, 08:42 PM   #20
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The difference was pretty large, agreed, but the cost of the diesels was about 15k each, then the stagger kit, then the ITS gimbles, then the XR Sportmasters (gimbles and drives were 30K for the pair alone) then the custom subframe engine mounting system (quite trick), etc, etc

In comparison, the verado's were about 15k each , and that includes everything, right up to (and including) the steering wheel, and right down to (and including) the battery. They literally come as a complete install kit. Plus the install / rig is a piece of piss in comparison, so far fewer man-hours in the quote. The stagger setup was quite a workup, lots of custom bits n bobs to make it all fit nicely together (remember the motors are not Merc).

It's a pretty narrow boat and the ITS setup buys a lot of transom space that would be lost with regular external steering, making the placement of drives & tabs a pain.

Wouldn't even have considered supplying a bare boat like Steve used to, but then I'm not in the boat production business with premises, equipment and staff on full time money, needing their time filled.
So equivalent petrol power with similar rigging say £15k cheaper than diesel but I guess still wouldn't fit even with the ITS gear?

And yes fully understand that you wouldn't look to supply bare boat and I'm certainly not trying to draw you into anything, but that's the one bit I've never got my head around cost wise in developing a boat.

How much does 1000kg of mixed aramat / balsa / gel etc cost once it's been through the mould and does producing a mould in the first place cost a similar amount?
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