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Old 26-09-2014, 04:24 PM   #1
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Need for speed

Not wanting to cause any controversy, but what should I be looking for to give me a reliable 70+mph in something less than 22 foot, and without having to find something Kevlar, with jacking plate, cone, low water pickup, tuned and a box of different props. Needs to carry 4 people, not cost the earth, and cope with sea conditions. It seems that most of the Rings and Phantoms rarely get into the 70's even with 225's. There also seems to be a huge disparity between apparently similar boats which adds to my confusion - and I wonder how much is down to experience and trim. Anyway - any help, guidance, advice welcome. Thanks....
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Old 26-09-2014, 04:44 PM   #2
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Hi iv had 61mph gps in my bernico and thats just with a 125 optimax sure you could see big numbers with a 250xs ect
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Old 26-09-2014, 05:18 PM   #3
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No problem getting a P21 or P20 in the 70s.
Just went in a P21 with a 225XS last weekend and we did 79mph..
Friend of mine does 85 mph with a P20 and a 200XS.

But then again, we rig the boats here in sweden for flat water
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Old 26-09-2014, 06:05 PM   #4
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A 200hp Phantom 20/21 will run 70mph+ if the set up is right - however a very fast flat water set up like Zander's friends won't run very well in choppy or rough water. A lot of numbers banded around by people are fictional, or running with the wind behind them and a 6 knot tide! The amount of '70mph' jet skis I've overtaken easily at 65mph is unreal

There's also a big difference between peak speeds and speeds you are able to consistently run on an average day out. My Bernico with a 200HO would go 70+ every time when testing in calm water, with a best of 74.7 on the GPS. When racing though we never got out of the 60s.

A well set up Ring or Phantom 20/21 with a 200 should see high 60s in typical chop and 70 in calm water from my experience in Guernsey waters. A lot of people wrongly assume that you bolt on a big motor and see big numbers on the speedo - an awful lot of it is to do with engine height, weight distribution and propeller, as well as being able to drive it safely!
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Old 26-09-2014, 07:55 PM   #5
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Having your cake...

Basically, your saying low cost, not lightweight / exotic build, not set up to surface pierce, under 22ft, handle chop and carry 4 pers at over 70mph

I'd say there is a reason why boats that do over 70 are lightweight and have race gearboxes. It is because it is what is needed to run at those speeds...

As above, ski racing boat such as phantom / ring / bernico / cyclone with a racing merc 200 / 225. / 250 / 300xs should reach 70 if built light but I doubt it at 4 up and they all run low water pick up engines. My old ring 21 with a race 200 xr2 would only ever manage 65 with 3 on board but it wasn't built that light.

I doubt there are many small ribs other than a phantom evo / scorpion that would manage 70 plus.

Can't think of much with an inboard that will do that either (except that nutty phantom copy with a vette engine that is for sale). Maybe the odd baja / old scarab but even those would struggle id say. You have to bear in mind what sort of speeds offshore race boats actually manage. Have a look at average speeds for cowes Torquay and that will give you a clue. Triple merc 1650s in a cig - different kettle of fish.
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Old 26-09-2014, 10:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zander View Post
Friend of mine does 85 mph with a P20 and a 200XS.
Can anybody smell cow, or is that bull?
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Old 27-09-2014, 07:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racefan View Post
Can anybody smell cow, or is that bull?
So you don´t belive me huh?

Well I got some proof here.

It´s from his GPS. 74 knots= 85 mph.
Here is also a vid of him running her, dont se the topspeed but you can se that she is effing fast


Propp is a Turbo 2+2 OT4 26" I think. Proppshaft 1.5cm over the keel.

/Zander
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Old 27-09-2014, 10:14 AM   #8
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........

http://www.ebay.com/itm/v-drive-hydr...wer_Motorboats
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Old 27-09-2014, 11:14 AM   #9
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I've a doubt too

It´s from his GPS. 74 knots= 85 mph.
Here is also a vid of him running her, dont se the topspeed but you can se that she is effing fast


Do you have the same video with a GPS like garmin late generation, lowrance gen 2 or other similar stuff with a go pro on the dash?
The number you give seems to be done by a mobile phone, the accurancy of this type of antenna is not at the latest marine GPS level. The prop slip calculation show somethong around 7% for you, it's pretty low for a monohull, unless the pilot is very light, and the boat a very very light version only able to run on flat miror water. Do you know the weight of the boat plus engine ready to go?
I know a guy from Scnadinavia with a hydrolift with a 200 xs GEN2 topping at 74knots, but the bare hull is only 260kg stamped on the boat tag, 225hp, hull at 260kg is this the same power/weight ratio for you?
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Old 27-09-2014, 06:30 PM   #10
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Calm down. Turbo/stiletto propps are kinda "stiff" in the pitch. Ae, compared to a Raker or Tempest the Turbo 26 is lika a 27.5 Raker...

The hull is light, the driver is light and it´s rigged to perfection. Gonna ask him to log in here...

Jesus christ, you guys really dont think we can drive our Phantoms do you?

He has low slipnumbers on his boat, same thing with the 225XS rigged P21 I had a ride in the other day.
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Old 27-09-2014, 06:36 PM   #11
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I'm certain my Bernico with the 200HO would've gone 80+ with the motor jacked and a bigger prop, but it would've been useless in our normal conditions. Horses for courses and all that!
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Old 27-09-2014, 06:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul E View Post
I'm certain my Bernico with the 200HO would've gone 80+ with the motor jacked and a bigger prop, but it would've been useless in our normal conditions. Horses for courses and all that!
Ye I belive so to, without any problems!
But then again, you guys insist to have such choppy waters
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Old 27-09-2014, 08:39 PM   #13
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My Phantom 21ft 200hp runs +70mph.
That's the type of boat and minimum engine hp you 're after.

But be careful when you want to go that fast with 3 passengers in the boat !
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Old 28-09-2014, 10:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just4Fun View Post
Not wanting to cause any controversy, but what should I be looking for to give me a reliable 70+mph in something less than 22 foot, and without having to find something Kevlar, with jacking plate, cone, low water pickup, tuned and a box of different props. Needs to carry 4 people, not cost the earth, and cope with sea conditions. It seems that most of the Rings and Phantoms rarely get into the 70's even with 225's. There also seems to be a huge disparity between apparently similar boats which adds to my confusion - and I wonder how much is down to experience and trim. Anyway - any help, guidance, advice welcome. Thanks....
What exactly are you wanting to do with the boat ?
Your looking for something smallish, can handle a bit if chop, can carry the weight of 4 people?
Are you running drugs or is it people smuggling :-) ??

gaZ
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Old 28-09-2014, 08:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchbruno View Post
It´s from his GPS. 74 knots= 85 mph.
Here is also a vid of him running her, dont se the topspeed but you can se that she is effing fast


Do you have the same video with a GPS like garmin late generation, lowrance gen 2 or other similar stuff with a go pro on the dash?
The number you give seems to be done by a mobile phone, the accurancy of this type of antenna is not at the latest marine GPS level. The prop slip calculation show somethong around 7% for you, it's pretty low for a monohull, unless the pilot is very light, and the boat a very very light version only able to run on flat miror water. Do you know the weight of the boat plus engine ready to go?
I know a guy from Scnadinavia with a hydrolift with a 200 xs GEN2 topping at 74knots, but the bare hull is only 260kg stamped on the boat tag, 225hp, hull at 260kg is this the same power/weight ratio for you?
I think I know who you mean with the Hydrolift and if so that boat was logged att 79.6kts (91.6mph) with potential for more... We also know what he did with a Phantom 21/Merc 250xs!

There is no reason to doubt Zander here - mattstar who runs that restored Phantom 20 in the film has put in a lot of effort to run those numbers.
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Old 28-09-2014, 11:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper View Post
I think I know who you mean with the Hydrolift and if so that boat was logged att 79.6kts (91.6mph) with potential for more... We also know what he did with a Phantom 21/Merc 250xs!

There is no reason to doubt Zander here - mattstar who runs that restored Phantom 20 in the film has put in a lot of effort to run those numbers.
Hello Nicky
The boat like the P21with the 250xs owned by Daniel is a complete different boat than the ones used for the rough, the deck is so thin that a man cannot stand on it (the boat is sold to Finland no?), and the bare hull is for sure far away heavier from the kevlar Cobra P21 he tested in France.

Two years ago I've made an order of a boat called light weight as you know , with my 250XS on it, the first half hour in the rough, I've lost some gelcoat, 7 hours of use later the boat came back to the builder full of cracks on one side, may be the best way to compare the performance is to speak about the same product. All hi number given are done on river with or without current? Wind direction? flat miror water, which is almost impossible in the area where I live. And I think giving speed record with a mobile apps is not so serious, isn't it?
I prefer this way:

I France too they put down the weight of some bat26 to 260kg, and in less than 2 laps of a offshore race the boat was completely distroyed, trashed . So it's only difficult for me to understand of what P21, P20, or other ultra extreme light weight builts for an unique use for miror waters we are making comparison. Plus the fact some drivers are more close to 100kg than a JUMP jokey style.After you can add only one liter of gasoline, only for the test, only one seat, an engien Cowl mad in carbon, and so on....
Same for cars, a BMW V8 with 200kg of extra weight removed, you can play on the track with some porsche GT3, I know , I know the driver skill is also important, but ....with the same car stock , you forget to play with GT3.
Do you know the exact bare hull weight of the former P21 ownen by Daniel?
Does the 200XSgen 2 is still on the T17?

sköt om dig!
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Old 29-09-2014, 10:44 PM   #17
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Some really useful info coming in.

I'm definitely looking for something robust. I've had transom and floor problems before and don't want to worry whenever I go out. I think this rules out lightweight rigs.

It would be a family runabout - driven sensibly on calm days. However, would want something that handles well in a chop and hits that magic 70mph given the right conditions.

It does seem incredible the difference in performance depending on setup. I fully understand need to minimise drag from leg, but it is less clear how a calm water setup differs from a coastal setup - unless in calm water you can raise leg so much more - which I then assume requires different prop design.

Is Swedish water THAT different ??

I'm still learning from the answers so please keep the advice up.
MANY thanks.
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Old 29-09-2014, 11:25 PM   #18
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just buy a bernico
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Old 30-09-2014, 12:11 AM   #19
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Quote:
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just buy a bernico
I don't know much about them, but haven't knowingly read anything bad about them.
Any idea which model for a 4 seater recreational cockpit. Is the basic 19 foot model appropriate, in which case what should I hang off the back?
Thanks
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7) Marshan 17 & 140hp Suzuki
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9) SeaRay 310SS & 2 x 330hp Mercruisers
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Old 30-09-2014, 12:42 AM   #20
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Leg length

On something like a Phantom 21, what leg length do I need in inches?
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4) Homemade Kayak
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6) Fonda Huster 14 & 40hp Johnson
7) Marshan 17 & 140hp Suzuki
8) Rinker 236 & 365hp Mercruiser
9) SeaRay 310SS & 2 x 330hp Mercruisers
10) Yamaha 1200SUV waverunner with 135hp
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