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06-04-2011, 11:05 AM
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 196
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a right mess, what i can see through this lot, correct me if i'm wrong, when you purchased it the council lied to the bank about curt's.
they are saying if you pay for more plans they will stop legal action, surely if it's illegal, it's illegal, it just can't disappear if you pay again, can it.
i would give copies of all the letters that you have showing there lies etc to the legal department and planning officers and tell them to serve the notice, and have the day in court.
i would piont out that you would not have purchased the property if you had known about the problems and that they are party to deception in the early stages of you buying it
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06-04-2011, 04:14 PM
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#42
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Registered User
Country: UK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,237
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I can hear shouts of "caveat Emptor" to that one!
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06-04-2011, 05:05 PM
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffer
a right mess, what i can see through this lot, correct me if i'm wrong, when you purchased it the council lied to the bank about curt's.
they are saying if you pay for more plans they will stop legal action, surely if it's illegal, it's illegal, it just can't disappear if you pay again, can it.
i would give copies of all the letters that you have showing there lies etc to the legal department and planning officers and tell them to serve the notice, and have the day in court.
i would piont out that you would not have purchased the property if you had known about the problems and that they are party to deception in the early stages of you buying it
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When we bought the property there was an enforcement case ongoing that was about the vast number of buildings that the previous owner had built. You can build various outbuildings within your curtilage of a house under class E permitted development. These building have certain restrictions as to how they are built and they must be incidental to the enjoyment of the property ( ie swimming pools and buildings to house tractors or animals etc. )they must not take up more than 50% of the curtilage.
We have a letter from the council forwarded on from the bank last March telling them that the buildings are within the Residential curtilage but built outside permitted development due to the scale of the buildings and that is the reason for the enforcment case They also wrote to me saying the same when we first contacted the council after buying in Aug 2010
But things have now changed the legal department are now saying that none of them are in the Residential Curtilage and the letters refered to are only a planning officers personal opinion.
Whats interesting is we have had 4 other planning officers visit the site with the guy who wrote those letters and none of them have questioned the curtilge.
So basically they say and do what ever they like.
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06-04-2011, 08:02 PM
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#44
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Registered User
Country: UK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,237
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Firstly, none of the buildings are wholly within the curtilage of the original dwelling (according to the maps Daren posted) so therefore they have been built without Planning Approval and are outside of a residential curtilage. The Council are correct in issuing an Enforcement notice.
Secondly, even if someone from the Council did say that they were within the residential curtilage, they are way over and far beyond what is deemed as permitted development anyway and the Council would be right in issuing an Enforcement Notice for this reason too.
Remember, you have probably had discussions and or correspondence from Planning officers and Enforcement Officers. These are both different departments even though they probably share the same building. The Enforcement officer is the one to be speaking to in this instance as he is responsible for Enforcing the Council's policies.
I have had Planning officers tell me one thing and the Enforcement Officer telling me another, its enough to drive you crazy.
If you have received an Enforcement Notice, what does it say?
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06-04-2011, 09:03 PM
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Holmes
Firstly, none of the buildings are wholly within the curtilage of the original dwelling (according to the maps Daren posted) so therefore they have been built without Planning Approval and are outside of a residential curtilage. The Council are correct in issuing an Enforcement notice.
Secondly, even if someone from the Council did say that they were within the residential curtilage, they are way over and far beyond what is deemed as permitted development anyway and the Council would be right in issuing an Enforcement Notice for this reason too.
Remember, you have probably had discussions and or correspondence from Planning officers and Enforcement Officers. These are both different departments even though they probably share the same building. The Enforcement officer is the one to be speaking to in this instance as he is responsible for Enforcing the Council's policies.
I have had Planning officers tell me one thing and the Enforcement Officer telling me another, its enough to drive you crazy.
If you have received an Enforcement Notice, what does it say?
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It says demolish all 7 buildings.
And yet last september they only wanted 5 buildings demolished.
Why do you say that there outside the curtilage. What do you believe those lines mean
Why are they outside permitted development.
If you read class E there within PD.
I have found 2 appeals that quote that a snooker room and games room which had the appearance of a bungalow ( about the same size as ours )and could easily be converted residential the owner won the appeal.
A swimming pool is quoted in Class E ( thats the one with the 10 roof l
windows )
The smallest building near the road we said we would pull down and the 3 detached garages we want to demolish but replace with a barn to house the tractor and mowers we require.
The bungelow behind the swimming pool we have already started taking down because we only want a small part of it for a Gym
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06-04-2011, 10:29 PM
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Those lines that Daren has highlighted have been added on the ordance survey maps in early 60's checking back on the old maps web site shows that there wernt any in 38-39 I believe that alot about the curtilage is determined pre 48
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06-04-2011, 11:11 PM
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#47
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Registered User
Country: UK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,237
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If i remember rightly you said that the previous owners had bought three adjoining parcels of land. The map that Daren produced shows the original dwelling and also the additional plots. The Curtilage means the area around the original dwelling and does not include the additional plots added at a later date.
Just because someone purchases adjoining plots this does not mean that those plots are now curtilage.
Permitted development rights only relate to the Curtilage and not plots of land with no dwelling.
You may be able to prove that the adjoining plots have been used as domestic curtilage if you can show that this has been the case for more than ten years. However, this can be difficult to prove conclusively. If you can supply evidence of the adjoining plots having been used as curtilage then you could claim that the non residential buildings are indeed permitted development and try to convince the Authority of this.
If you can not prove that the adjoining plots have been consistently used as residential curtilage then the land does not have the right of Permitted development and therefor the buildings are unlawful and you will have to take them down.
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06-04-2011, 11:45 PM
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Digging through some old paper work we have found it appears that the original owner in 1870 owned 42 acres of land around there.
We know that part of the land was sold to Mr Garner in 1925 and we believe he had the house built, We know he died in the house 1930. The plot of land was 200 foot wide and 300 foot deep as we have a map. What's interesting is the width could be a issue for us but the depth is a help as it's on the boundary line as all the other houses down to the railway line.
In 1931 we have a will were he left it to a lady and at that point we get confused as to how the rest of the land was gained ( the land to the right )
We have an original paper called Abstract of the Title the first date is 1867that tells us all about previous land owners and who gets what when they die. However Its very difficult to understand
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07-04-2011, 12:02 AM
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#49
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Registered User
Country: UK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,237
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For the purposes of the Planning Law, the curtilage of the land would have been established when the house was built sometime in the 1920's. Whatever size the plot was when the house was built would be taken to be the curtilage I would think. The later adjoining plots would still be classified as arable or amenity land but not curtilage unless you can prove a continued use as curtilage of more than 10 years.
I wouldnt worry too much about any paperwork relating to the land prior to the house being built as it will not help your case here.
When is your deadline?
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08-04-2011, 12:51 PM
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Holmes
For the purposes of the Planning Law, the curtilage of the land would have been established when the house was built sometime in the 1920's. Whatever size the plot was when the house was built would be taken to be the curtilage I would think. The later adjoining plots would still be classified as arable or amenity land but not curtilage unless you can prove a continued use as curtilage of more than 10 years.
I wouldnt worry too much about any paperwork relating to the land prior to the house being built as it will not help your case here.
When is your deadline?
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Deadline is the 28th I have some planning people on the case but it appears that there are not that many experts who ever agree on curtilage
My guys are saying that we need maps just after 1948 that show what land was around the house.
Others seem to refere to when the house was actually built if its before 1948
On old maps there is a map 1938-39 that show there are no boundary lines.
The 1960 map some lines appear and they get change over the next 30 years.
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09-04-2011, 09:54 AM
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunton69
Deadline is the 28th I have some planning people on the case but it appears that there are not that many experts who ever agree on curtilage
My guys are saying that we need maps just after 1948 that show what land was around the house.
Others seem to refere to when the house was actually built if its before 1948
On old maps there is a map 1938-39 that show there are no boundary lines.
The 1960 map some lines appear and they get change over the next 30 years.
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you'll have to get some kind of deal hammered out, the council guys will keep on and on, it justifies there jobs, you're going to have to give them something so they think they've won, but clearly you need you need to move forward, what's the likelyhood of getting them all in one room?
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09-04-2011, 10:50 AM
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#52
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Registered User
Country: UK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffer
what's the likelyhood of getting them all in one room and kicking ten bales of shit out of each one of them?
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Mmmm, interesting thought!
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09-04-2011, 11:30 AM
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Holmes
Mmmm, interesting thought!
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i didn't add that last bit, but it did cross my mind
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09-04-2011, 02:13 PM
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#54
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: Wickford Essex
Interests: water sports
Cruising area: The bath
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wickford Essex
Posts: 329
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As your house is circa 1920's the curtilage is as it was on of 1st July 1948.
I believe this is the date at which mapping was changed to the 'National Grid' as we know it today and gives us all our current measurable reference points and datums so can be used in legal documents etc.
Previousley the grid was based on something like a 5000 yard grid and so earlier mapping is now obsolete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunton69
Deadline is the 28th I have some planning people on the case but it appears that there are not that many experts who ever agree on curtilage
My guys are saying that we need maps just after 1948 that show what land was around the house.
Others seem to refere to when the house was actually built if its before 1948
On old maps there is a map 1938-39 that show there are no boundary lines.
The 1960 map some lines appear and they get change over the next 30 years.
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Shoulders back, chest out - lovely bouys
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09-04-2011, 02:22 PM
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#55
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Registered User
Country: UK
Location: Wickford Essex
Interests: water sports
Cruising area: The bath
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wickford Essex
Posts: 329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Holmes
Originally Posted by biffer
what's the likelyhood of getting them all in one room and kicking ten bales of shit out of each one of them?
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That's my 'happy place' that i think of when i am having a bad day...
but as its 'bales' of shit it usually ends up with them telling me I need an agricultural certificate and to come back when i've got the right paperwork.
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Shoulders back, chest out - lovely bouys
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09-04-2011, 02:27 PM
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daren
As your house is circa 1920's the curtilage is as it was on of 1st July 1948.
I believe this is the date at which mapping was changed to the 'National Grid' as we know it today and gives us all our current measurable reference points and datums so can be used in legal documents etc.
Previousley the grid was based on something like a 5000 yard grid and so earlier mapping is now obsolete.
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In that case the lines on the map that you were showing have been added since 1948
Maps in 38-39 do not show those lines that are on today and the next map i can find in 1960 and there different again
We believe that the land in 1948 is the same as today apart from a small strip to the east does doesn't matter
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10-04-2011, 08:58 AM
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#57
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Registered User
Country: UK
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,237
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Barry, what does the Land Registry Title Deed show as the boundary of the property?
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10-04-2011, 09:19 AM
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Holmes
Barry, what does the Land Registry Title Deed show as the boundary of the property?
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We have not seen the LRTD
If you look at the picture of the property it has not changed since 1948
Infact the grid line overlay is not accurate as our boundary to the right of the picture is by the hedgerow to the next field
I think some are confusing those lines that appear on the maps as new land being bought over the years. That is incorrect.
The property has shrunk because we know that the land to the left of the picture was originally owned by this owner. The houses were built just after the war.
The question is how can we define the curtilage of the property as of 1948
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10-04-2011, 08:38 PM
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#59
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Registered User
Country: Job Centre
Location: In a box
Occupation: Chaos's gofer
Interests: Skiving
Boat make: Spectre 30
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In a box
Posts: 5,201
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his has been sent to me by someone who i suspect wishes to remain anonymous for some reason.....
Tell the ****er he only has to show the cutilage in use for the past 10 years, as that is all it takes. If you use land as if it were your curtilage, ie the garden of the house, for 10 years, and the council did not object in those 10 years, then that is the defined curtilage.... 1947 does not matter."
This message has been sent to all moderators of this forum, or all administrators if there are no moderators.
Please respond to this post as applicable.
"
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Chaos for Moderator.
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14-04-2011, 12:34 AM
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Holmes
Barry, what does the Land Registry Title Deed show as the boundary of the property?
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We now have the history and land registry info required
The property was sold in 1931 and the land in question measured 560 foot from the left boundary to the right boundary. It is 300 foot from the road to the rear boundary on the left of the property and 365 feet to the right of the property.
Parents then daughter and then here husband lived in the property untill it was sold in 2002. We bought 2010
The plot of land has remained the same through out that period.
As said before over the years various lines have appeared on the ordance survey maps not sure why.
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