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Old 11-07-2005, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrRob
As it is impossible to control a boat once it has taken off then this means it is impossible to control the landing hence it must be the way the boat takes off that determines how it lands back into the water.
That's a nice bit of reasoning there, MrRob.
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Old 11-07-2005, 12:39 PM   #22
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Just a theory
If the boat takes off flat then it should land flat. If you take off and say the boat is rotating then one side of the hull will land harder than the other and cause that side of the hull bounce back off the water and thus pushing the back end around causing a spin like violent turn. Someone out there must know what the crack is! But there must be some kind of massive force generated when hitting the water great enoungh to push the back end around into a violent turn.
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Old 11-07-2005, 01:15 PM   #23
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You could think of 'hook' as like flooring a FWD car in a corner, or reversing a trailer. In the car, you steer to correct to allow the front to drift with the back - in a boat you can help control it with trim - too much trim in give the front too much drag, and the back not enough. B23's and other stepped hulls are particularly known for this if you trim it wrong in a corner - but all hulls can suffer from it if you get it wrong, and generally by the time you notice it, you're already exiting the boat head first and tightening yer sphincter muscle.
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Old 11-07-2005, 01:16 PM   #24
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Should add that this is not an exhaustive description of hook or how it happens - I'm not pretending to be an authority on the matter.
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Old 11-07-2005, 01:23 PM   #25
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You will get a feel for it but as you say you can do very little once airbourne. So set yourself up pre airbourne.... There is inbuilt stability within the boat which will correct itself in theory but sometimes it can bite. Raise you caution level when it feels like the back is going faster than the front, you can feel it "walk round" that can trigger it quite nicely sometimes just as it "walks the nose catches". 98% of the time it will be a LH one
hit.........if you wanna trigger one go get airbourne and give in a wooping lh down when it the air....not recomended.. that last bit was a do not do.
Correct tim setting & awareness is the key.............along with a heap of seat time. Dont get physco about it might not happen but if you do want to explore the maximium of the envlope dont go to sea alone go in company.
Nothing wrong in a good bit of tuition either, a few hours with Phantom Evo will reap it's benifits.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gav
Have you ever raced a phantom for any length of time Jon?
Actually, I've never 'raced' a Phantom.

But ever sinse i've had the pleasure of driving higher performance sports/ski boats, I always prefered the neutral feel of the Phantoms (18, 20, 21...) over the equivelent Ring design.

TD will bare me out, many, many moons ago, he always prefered the Ring 20, and I always the P20. The main reason for me is the fwd spray rail design of the Ring, means it will catch a wave and go awol, trim one in, push hard, and it WILL lay over on it's port side, dig the port fwd rails in, and hook right.

hit a wave in a way that presents the rail with a similar grip........adios amigo.

all just MHO.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:38 PM   #27
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I see "Old Beardy" is looking at this thread.

Ian, I'd value your opinion on the Ring/Phantom debate......wotz your preference and why?
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:19 PM   #28
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Re: Say what Now?

Quote:
Originally posted by MrRob
I think this webshite
Is that a Freudian slip?....or did you mean it?
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:26 PM   #29
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Re: Re: Say what Now?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Fuller
Is that a Freudian slip?....or did you mean it?

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Old 11-07-2005, 06:30 PM   #30
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I always use the term webshite.
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Fuller
I see "Old Beardy" is looking at this thread.

Ian, I'd like your opinion on the Ring/Phantom debate......wotz your preference and why?
I have had two Ring 16`s and a Ring 20. The 16`s we used for OCR 1.3 and for ski-racing. The first 16 was an old one with rivetted screen and that was the one we ski-raced, fitted with a 140 Yam it was lethal! It chine walked like a bastard! The other 16 was fitted with a 90 Tohatsu and made a good safe little boat for the girlfriend to race, but always slightly off the pace of the P16`s. The Ring 20 was an ex ski race boat that we bought cheap and completely re-fitted as a pleasure boat. This had a 135 Merc on it and made a very pleasant ski boat, just enough power to keep it safe but plenty of pull out for skiing.
In terms of Phantoms then I am with Jon!! I just love em! I have raced 16,18,20 and now a 21. They have all been superb. The hardest to set up and probably the hardest to drive in anger was the 20. The easiest to get on with has been the 21 cos it just feels like a big 18. The handling characteristics are remarkably similar for such a difference in length. The little 16 was amazing.
I have read a lot recently on the forum about setting up the 20`s and for what it is worth I will add my twopence. I am basing this on 7 years racing in OCR and so it may not apply to those who only want to go fast for a short burst across the bay on a fine day, or for pulling a skier. Remember also that in OCR it is a standard XR2 with no goodies like lifters, trim tabs etc. Balance and weight distribution we found was critical. We found with a fat knacker like me in the driving seat and a lighter navigator we still needed to put all the ancillary items such as battery, trim pump etc on the drivers side. The engine was smack in the middle of the transom. The fuel tank we used as a final balancing aid, in the flat it was closer to the transom and in the rough we moved it about 300mm further forward. We had no bow tank as we found it superfluous. We ran with the point of the gearbox (CLE) approx 1" below the keel. The two things we found gave us that extra bit in terms of handling and hence performance because you could keep your right foot planted, were the Latham steering and short shaft mid section. By keeping the C.O.G. down you didn`t get the "pendulum" effect from the V6 when cornering and by not having any play whatsoever in the steering stopped it from "wandering" .
As previously stated these are just a few of our findings and will not apply to everyone.
But getting back to the original question of the Ring v Phantom, I prefer the Phantom. Hope this helps.
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:16 PM   #32
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Thanks Ian, and thanks for the rigging details, not many people want to share such details, especialy if they are/were racers.

See you in LA
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:17 PM   #33
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Some good stuff there! Thanks
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:42 PM   #34
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Well thats one of the most genuinly helpfull/ informative posts on here in Donkeys.

why didnt i buy a 20?

Quote:
Originally posted by "Old beardy"
I have had two Ring 16`s and a Ring 20. The 16`s we used for OCR 1.3 and for ski-racing. The first 16 was an old one with rivetted screen and that was the one we ski-raced, fitted with a 140 Yam it was lethal! It chine walked like a bastard! The other 16 was fitted with a 90 Tohatsu and made a good safe little boat for the girlfriend to race, but always slightly off the pace of the P16`s. The Ring 20 was an ex ski race boat that we bought cheap and completely re-fitted as a pleasure boat. This had a 135 Merc on it and made a very pleasant ski boat, just enough power to keep it safe but plenty of pull out for skiing.
In terms of Phantoms then I am with Jon!! I just love em! I have raced 16,18,20 and now a 21. They have all been superb. The hardest to set up and probably the hardest to drive in anger was the 20. The easiest to get on with has been the 21 cos it just feels like a big 18. The handling characteristics are remarkably similar for such a difference in length. The little 16 was amazing.
I have read a lot recently on the forum about setting up the 20`s and for what it is worth I will add my twopence. I am basing this on 7 years racing in OCR and so it may not apply to those who only want to go fast for a short burst across the bay on a fine day, or for pulling a skier. Remember also that in OCR it is a standard XR2 with no goodies like lifters, trim tabs etc. Balance and weight distribution we found was critical. We found with a fat knacker like me in the driving seat and a lighter navigator we still needed to put all the ancillary items such as battery, trim pump etc on the drivers side. The engine was smack in the middle of the transom. The fuel tank we used as a final balancing aid, in the flat it was closer to the transom and in the rough we moved it about 300mm further forward. We had no bow tank as we found it superfluous. We ran with the point of the gearbox (CLE) approx 1" below the keel. The two things we found gave us that extra bit in terms of handling and hence performance because you could keep your right foot planted, were the Latham steering and short shaft mid section. By keeping the C.O.G. down you didn`t get the "pendulum" effect from the V6 when cornering and by not having any play whatsoever in the steering stopped it from "wandering" .
As previously stated these are just a few of our findings and will not apply to everyone.
But getting back to the original question of the Ring v Phantom, I prefer the Phantom. Hope this helps.
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Old 11-07-2005, 10:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
[i] The other 16 was fitted with a 90 Tohatsu and made a good safe little boat for the girlfriend to race, [/B]
my dad had this boat off of you Ian we ran a mariner 115 on it and it then chined like a bastard! great boat for learning to drive/ski
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:01 AM   #36
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Given the right circumstances anything will hook its a combernation of events, sometimes more pronounced in certain types of boat, and certain designs but it depends on far too many individual factors. I watched Ian Roswell Hook & roll his P21 on a lovley flat calm Brighton Race just after he passed. So even these are not fireproof. They will all do it just depends on when THEY choose to bite. I agree with the pronounced spray rails of the ring but again they are a +ve in other areas. Know your boat & its limits nothing wrong with 10/10ths possibly squeez 11/10th but watch your ass when it's 12/10ths or more.
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