Apache 36, 41 and 47 in Europe

[MikeOakley]

Originally Posted by Dictator

I suppose you could say my boat is close to an apache!!! Well the plywood deck variation with a strap-on end!!!!!

Sorry to crush your dreams...

The Apache41 was modified in the hull to quite an extent plus they are all laid up in Kevlar thus being lighter and a lot stronger than just a run of the mill Cig/XII.
The bottom is different, the deck is different,the Transom is different, the lay up schedule was different as was the materials used plus rigging totally different.

The first Apache used by Jerry Kilpatrick was a Squadron indeed as the Apache41 mold wasn´t ready but even that one had a different deck than the customer Squadron XII 39 flatdeck.

PS. have you "already" paid in full for that boat or is it because of that you´re in it for the long run !?

[littlenige]

Re: Rocky Aoki - I have read an article on the net that suggests that he doesn't enjoy the best of health these days so that may be part of the reasoning why....

(a miracle he's still here at all given his spectacular racing incidents over the years!)

I agree though Jon, it always surprises or saddens me that some of the racers from yesteryear disappear with no apparent (or noticeable) interest.

[TonyToll]

You are quite right about the difference between an Apache and a Cigarette, Having owned a cigarette before my apache I can confirm the Apache is not a stretched Cigarette 39, the hulls look similar but are quite different, the cigarette has a rocker whilst the Apache chine and keel run pretty straight. As you say different materials, layup etc. Even with the lighter stronger kevlar mine is still heavy, but it does run well in the rough!

[Tony Davis]

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...d.php?t=168903

[MikeOakley]

Originally Posted by TonyToll

You are quite right about the difference between an Apache and a Cigarette, Having owned a cigarette before my apache I can confirm the Apache is not a stretched Cigarette 39, the hulls look similar but are quite different, the cigarette has a rocker whilst the Apache chine and keel run pretty straight. As you say different materials, layup etc. Even with the lighter stronger kevlar mine is still heavy, but it does run well in the rough!

Congratulations for getting one of the tribe.
Someday I´m there too.
First when I read about Apaches I thought oh well another Cigarette wannabe until I found out that Cigarettes are mass produced boats, quite a lot better than Wellcrafts but still.
Only "massproduced quality boat" I can think of are Nautors Swans but even they are built not one similar to the other.
And Apaches were made by the standards that rule even today if you want to build a sturdy boat.. mayde the Balsa could be nowadays be substituted withg something synthetic but that would be about it and I don´t mean plywood...

[Matt]

Maybe, but FWIW I doubt by much. A balsa cored composite is incredibly strong and light. Using foam instead would, IMVHO, be difficult to make any better than balsa.

Originally Posted by MikeOakley

mayde the Balsa could be nowadays be substituted withg something synthetic but that would be about it and I don´t mean plywood...

[TonyToll]

Today there is no doubt manufacturers are making lighter boats, not because of the core material used, I doubt there is much difference between balsa and rohacell foam, but the main difference is the fibre/resin ratio. A lot more science is used today, when they started using carbon fibre and kevlar they used just as much resin as regular glass layups, things have come a long way in the last twenty years!
I have heard Apaches refered to as resin buckets which is probably not too unfair but I have to say I am well pleased to have 'one of the tribe'

[Cigaretteman]

Originally Posted by TonyToll

Today there is no doubt manufacturers are making lighter boats, not because of the core material used, I doubt there is much difference between balsa and rohacell foam, but the main difference is the fibre/resin ratio. A lot more science is used today, when they started using carbon fibre and kevlar they used just as much resin as regular glass layups, things have come a long way in the last twenty years!
I have heard Apaches refered to as resin buckets which is probably not too unfair but I have to say I am well pleased to have 'one of the tribe'

How about some more pictures of that bad boy ?

[MikeOakley]

Originally Posted by Matt

Maybe, but FWIW I doubt by much. A balsa cored composite is incredibly strong and light. Using foam instead would, IMVHO, be difficult to make any better than balsa.

Balsa also turns fast into dust between then resin when it gets a chance to move (flex) which foam doesn´t that´s the only drawback with balsa, plus the area to repair after that is way bigger than with foam when a crack happens...so there is the progress in short thats been going on for the last XX Decades.
Ok, also using Epoxy, prepreg foam plus Kevlar and Carbon mat fill make the difference.
A Apache41 made with those materials and todays layups would probably destroy the competition.
Or any other similar and straight full V, it´s just a matter of time and someones money before it happens.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by MikeOakley

Balsa also turns fast into dust between then resin when it gets a chance to move (flex) which foam doesn´t that´s the only drawback with balsa, plus the area to repair after that is way bigger than with foam when a crack happens...so there in the progress thats been going on for the last XX Decades.

Interestingly, my take on it is exactly opposite of that.

I know skater used to say that they prefered Balsa to synthetic core because of just that, crumbling of the core. With Balsa being extremely forgiving in comparison.

Mark Pascoe found the same thing, for all his sandwich construction, he only used Balsa. (though he did use foam for his longits (stringers), which I think is shite, especialy given the joins he would usually have in them)

However, and this is a big 'however', if the Balsa isn't completely encapsulated/sealed from the elements (water) it will for sure, turn to dust. I've seen countless cases of this and it's not just in the construction, but just as important in the rigging, not to introduce ANY holes into a Balsa cored area, even if that hole then gets a fixing in it.

My 28 is 7 years old now, and I would bet my bottom dollar that all the Balsa within is as good as the day it was laid and virtually every square inch of my boats skin is a Balsa sandwich of one thickness or another. (I was quite anal about the fit-out with respect to maintaining it's integrity)

It goes without saying that the synthetic cores would be more resiliant to rot if water ingress were to occur, but I think I would still be inclined to try and keep it dry, even if it were foam.

[TonyToll]

Originally Posted by Cigaretteman

How about some more pictures of that bad boy ?

Some more pics

[Jon Fuller]

There's little doubt, that has to be the most economical boat to run on this site! 1000 horses a side was it Tone??.....ouch!

You're our very own Ben Kramer! (with the addition of da silver wig)

[MikeOakley]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Interestingly, my take on it is exactly opposite of that.

I´m open to discussion on the matter.
Not that I´m no expert on the subject.
A Balsa sandwich is as strong as a foam core and cheaper so it´s just a matter of taste IMO.

I know skater used to say that they prefered Balsa to synthetic core because of just that, crumbling of the core. With Balsa being extremely forgiving in comparison.

Mark Pascoe found the same thing, for all his sandwich construction, he only used Balsa. (though he did use foam for his longits (stringers), which I think is shite, especialy given the joins he would usually have in them)

However, and this is a big 'however', if the Balsa isn't completely encapsulated/sealed from the elements (water) it will for sure, turn to dust. I've seen countless cases of this and it's not just in the construction, but just as important in the rigging, not to introduce ANY holes into a Balsa cored area, even if that hole then gets a fixing in it.

Did Skater use perforated and prepregged foam..if not I agree with them, if yes and vacuumbagged I beg to differ.
I believe the question also arises what resin you use.
Moisture will kill a balsa sandwiched boat fast but also foam doesn´t like it either.
Any hole in a boat is a potential problempoint.

My 28 is 7 years old now, and I would bet my bottom dollar that all the Balsa within is as good as the day it was laid and virtually every square inch of my boats skin is a Balsa sandwich of one thickness or another. (I was quite anal about the fit-out with respect to maintaining it's integrity)

It goes without saying that the synthetic cores would be more resiliant to rot if water ingress were to occur, but I think I would still be inclined to try and keep it dry, even if it were foam.

Where there´s moisture there´s rot...so we agree on that one.

[TonyToll]

There is a down side to everything and unfortuneatly I expect to be a regular visitor to the fuel pumps. As you can imagine Ben's source of income would be really useful with fuel @ £1 a litre, but I will have to manage with fewer outings.

[Mike Lloyd]

Originally Posted by TonyToll

There is a down side to everything and unfortuneatly I expect to be a regular visitor to the fuel pumps. As you can imagine Ben's source of income would be really useful with fuel @ £1 a litre, but I will have to manage with fewer outings.

There is something about watching an Apache running fast in big water that gives me goose bumps. I will be watching your boat running in the RB08 with great interest Tony and hopefully sitting just off your starboard quarter and above watching and wishing I was down there!!
ML.

[TonyToll]

Originally Posted by OldMan

There is something about watching an Apache running fast in big water that gives me goose bumps. I will be watching your boat running in the RB08 with great interest Tony and hopefully sitting just off your starboard quarter and above watching and wishing I was down there!!
ML.

Mike, I look forward to you watching over us next year in the RB08, perhaps we could arrange one leg where you could get even closer to the action!

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by TonyToll

Mike, I look forward to you watching over us next year in the RB08, perhaps we could arrange one leg where you could get even closer to the action!

Oi!!! No bribing the organisers! we've got enough trouble with Puddifoot!

[Mike Lloyd]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Oi!!! No bribing the organisers! we've got enough trouble with Puddifoot!

Just behave yourself youngman, the only way I can be corrupted IS by someone with an Apache offering me a ride - or perhaps someone with a rather sexy Phantom 31 with loads of muscle in the back. For those of a perverted way of thinking by the way, I'm talking engines here!!
ML.

[Comanche3Six]

Originally Posted by TonyToll

Some more pics

That 41 Apache is from New Jersey. Very impressive rough water powerboat!

[TonyToll]

You are right I bought her earlier this year, she runs well but needed a fair bit of work before we launched her here in August.