What's your preferred pickup??

[odyssey aka Blue streak]

as shown in seperate thread i have just built a pick up 1" 1/2 pick up with a ball valve inside for saftey purpose. Fills a 70 litre tank very quickly. I use 2 rule 2000 pumps to empty it................ 70 liters in 26 seconds . I don't know any transom dump system that works that well and holds the water with out leaking also if your breathers arn't big enough you create a vacum which slows the dump and it is very dependant on gravity also to allow it to drain.

http://boatmad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19406

[odyssey aka Blue streak]

HI all. please ignore the above thread decided to add some more detail and for some reason there was no edit box avalible
as in seperate thread i have just built a stainless 1" 1/2 pick up with a 1"1/2 ball valve inside for saftey purpose. Fills a 70 litre tank very quickly. I built the tank out of a polypropolene tank that is rated to 4 PSI pressure. I use 2 rule 2000 gph pumps to empty it through 2x 1"1/2 outlets one on each side . The tank is vented by 2x 1"3/4 fittings again one on each side this ensure there is no pressure build up nor vacum caused when dumping. I cut a 167mm hole in the top of the tank for access and use a bailey marine water tight hatch to reseal. The tank is also fitted with a tell tell vent on the bow and a basic float sensor that illuminates an LED when water is in the tank and subsequently turns off when tank is empty. All fittigns are properly secured with sika flexed and through bolted and due to the size of the vents there should be no pressure build up whilst filling so hopefully the lid wont come off................it dumps 70 liters in 26 seconds . I don't know any transom dump system that works that well and holds the water with out leaking over time. also if your breathers arn't big enough you tank will blow when filling and create a vacum when dumping this all slows the proccess down.

Please correct me if i am wrong but dosent transom dump system rely on gravity and also being on the plane to work??????

As for filling through the pump. It seems that you are just creating a restriction in the system. A pump is designed to work in one direction be it on the pressure side or the vacum side. I dont think that flowing water through it in the wrong direction is going to be very efficent.

hope this helps with any ideas

[odyssey aka Blue streak]

Originally Posted by larby

Yeah I must admit I'm a fan of using a couple of huge pumps to empty the tank.

We've got a design on the go that would allow it to function as either a dual in/out or pickup only. This could be attached to a pump at the other end if gravity isn't enough alone to empty. I believe the tank would fill perfectly well with the water being pushed through a pump (need to check it wouldn't harm the pump!), then the pump could be activated either by dash switch or a micro-switch on the control to dump the tank.

James

Also just an added thought with this system would you not have to fill from the base of the tank????

[DAREDEVIL]

Originally Posted by odyssey aka Blue streak

HI all. please ignore the above thread decided to add some more detail and for some reason there was no edit box avalible
as in seperate thread i have just built a stainless 1" 1/2 pick up with a 1"1/2 ball valve inside for saftey purpose. Fills a 70 litre tank very quickly. I built the tank out of a polypropolene tank that is rated to 4 PSI pressure. I use 2 rule 2000 gph pumps to empty it through 2x 1"1/2 outlets one on each side . The tank is vented by 2x 1"3/4 fittings again one on each side this ensure there is no pressure build up nor vacum caused when dumping. I cut a 167mm hole in the top of the tank for access and use a bailey marine water tight hatch to reseal. The tank is also fitted with a tell tell vent on the bow and a basic float sensor that illuminates an LED when water is in the tank and subsequently turns off when tank is empty. All fittigns are properly secured with sika flexed and through bolted and due to the size of the vents there should be no pressure build up whilst filling so hopefully the lid wont come off................it dumps 70 liters in 26 seconds . I don't know any transom dump system that works that well and holds the water with out leaking over time. also if your breathers arn't big enough you tank will blow when filling and create a vacum when dumping this all slows the proccess down.

Please correct me if i am wrong but dosent transom dump system rely on gravity and also being on the plane to work??????

As for filling through the pump. It seems that you are just creating a restriction in the system. A pump is designed to work in one direction be it on the pressure side or the vacum side. I dont think that flowing water through it in the wrong direction is going to be very efficent.

hope this helps with any ideas

If there is any correct way to do this.. THE ABOVE IS IT !!!! .....

mine is the same with a 26 US GALLON TANK and a 12V selaniod switch on the pickup.. i laso only use 1 3500 RULE pump in the tank !
takes 45 sec to fill and 52 sec to empty ! and is roughly 150 pounds when full.
I used an PVC fuel tank !
I also have 3 air vents and one huge fill hose extra with lid on the deck to flush and maybe fill by hose !


Also ask some US guys.. how lucky they been with FILL AND DUMP APLICATIONS.... bilges full of water and slow dumping when u need it fast ! Just sayin'

[Jon Fuller]

Re-inventing the wheel is such a great sport.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by DAREDEVIL

Also ask some US guys..

With the greatest respect, early British racers seemed to realise the possible benefits of changing CofG with sea state and were running bow ballast tanks (fillable and dupable on the move) 40 odd years ago, long, long before they were seen on US boats, especially in pleasure applications. I think it may even be a invention from those pioneers. Maybe this was in part because we (this side of the pond) were running smaller boats for offshore racing where maybe it's more critical to maintain a happy balance.

A few newbies here wanting to re-invent things, but it has ALL been done many, many times before, by the likes of Baker, Ring etc.

For racing, the combined fill / dump (from bottom of ballast tank) is the simplest way by far, least tech issues, least kit (light) and if it's done right, fill & dumps more than quickly enough.
No one has mentioned (being newbies) that the biggest issue by far is you must have an over sized breather/vent, not for dumping quickly, but because if you don't, and the fill is quick and efficient (good flow and pressure), you'll burst your bow tank in an instant.

[larby]

On the bright side it gave Daredevil something constructive to talk about...

[Tony Davis]

Originally Posted by odyssey aka Blue streak

as in seperate thread i have just built a stainless 1" 1/2 pick up with a 1"1/2 ball valve inside for saftey purpose. Fills a 70 litre tank very quickly. I built the tank out of a polypropolene tank that is rated to 4 PSI pressure. I use 2 rule 2000 gph pumps to empty it through 2x 1"1/2 outlets one on each side . The tank is vented by 2x 1"3/4 fittings again one on each side this ensure there is no pressure build up nor vacum caused when dumping. I cut a 167mm hole in the top of the tank for access and use a bailey marine water tight hatch to reseal. The tank is also fitted with a tell tell vent on the bow and a basic float sensor that illuminates an LED when water is in the tank and subsequently turns off when tank is empty. All fittigns are properly secured with sika flexed and through bolted and due to the size of the vents there should be no pressure build up whilst filling so hopefully the lid wont come off................it dumps 70 liters in 26 seconds . I don't know any transom dump system that works that well and holds the water with out leaking over time. also if your breathers arn't big enough you tank will blow when filling and create a vacum when dumping this all slows the proccess down.

Please correct me if i am wrong but dosent transom dump system rely on gravity and also being on the plane to work??????

Just noticed where you work, why doesn't that suprise me!

Out of interest, where on the boat is the inlet for your pumped system?

[odyssey aka Blue streak]

Hi john i believe i mentioned about tank pressures and if your vents are not big enough the tank will blow. As for the newbie comment well i think its possibly a bit degrading.
Just because i have not been on here since day dot... apparently i know nothing
Tony
Im not sure how to take that comment about where i work i guess you know a few people here???? the pumps are submersible pumps and are placed in the aft of the tank as to pick up everything with the altitude of the boat. The inlet fill is in the top aft of the tank with the breathers at the most forward position at the top of the tank.

[Jon Fuller]

The newbie comment was nowt to do with websites, or duration of membership thereof...

It was based on the various questions, answers and opinions about a subject that's actually decades old. With the newbie bit, meaning new to fast boating or racing, as all the old codgers (non newbies) have grown up with bow tanks, the principles of, the various mechanisms of, and the pro's & con's of.. all of the above.
If you were to speak to any class III racers from the 70's onward, most if not all would be pretty well versed with all things ballast tank.

Some on this thread appear to not even understand the basic principles and requirements, that to me, makes them newbies, that's not an insult, it's an observation.

I'm an old codger btw.

[Tony Davis]

Originally Posted by odyssey aka Blue streak

Tony
Im not sure how to take that comment about where i work i guess you know a few people here????

Oh yes, I certainly do, probably coz Mark, Ace etc built quite a few of my boats there, and before that at Hamble Point. So what I meant was the installation sounds a bit complicated, as you'd expect from Pascoe's!!! lol

Originally Posted by odyssey aka Blue streak

the pumps are submersible pumps and are placed in the aft of the tank as to pick up everything with the altitude of the boat. The inlet fill is in the top aft of the tank with the breathers at the most forward position at the top of the tank.

What I was asking was where about's on the outside of the hull is the inlet located?

[Matt]

Another great observation!

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

I'm an old codger

People like a bit of bling - and therefore electrically filled ballast tanks etc sends people's knees a bit wobbly. However, it's also unnecessarily increasing the complexity and therefore both costs, weight and failure points.

The single fill and dump minimises the number of system components, and correctly positioned & designed, the dump can work like a self bailer on sailing dinghy. On a size for size basis, the "suck" you can can get on a correctly designed exit on the transom will far exceed anything realistically possible from an electric dump. And even just using a gravity dump on a large bore pipe, it'll empty pretty damn quick.

So in terms of designing a new product - the one that covers all bases is a well designed combined fill and dump. If a customer then chooses to only use the fill element with electric drain, then they can, or vice versa.

Would suggest you make sure the throws of the valve are in line with the 33C throws of a gear selector lever - fill, hold, dump.

[Big Dutch]

Whats wrong with a couple of sandbags if its rough ?

[DAREDEVIL]

Originally Posted by Big Dutch

Whats wrong with a couple of sandbags if its rough ?

ever had t clean out the sand in the bilge ??

@ Jon, your right..back then thats what they did ... BECAUSE IT WAS BACK THEN !!!!!!

My set up is the same then blue streaks.. since 3 years now and no issue AT ALL !

My pick up is on the trim tab tho !

@ LARBY... oh well...just a BS TALKER keyboard hero he is !!!!

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by DAREDEVIL

@ Jon, your right..back then thats what they did ... BECAUSE IT WAS BACK THEN !!!!!!

Whatever..

Originally Posted by DAREDEVIL

My set up is the same then blue streaks.. since 3 years now and no issue AT ALL !

3 years eh, in Yank racing thats almost......well, it must be, christ, nearly 50 miles!!

If it works for you, that's cool.

[pugracer285]

Nowt wrong with re-inventing the wheel.

As technology advances there are new and better ways to do things.

If we never tried out new ideas we'd all still be sat in a cave drawing pictures on the wall with a lump of coal!

[odyssey aka Blue streak]

John
My misunderstanding. I read the comment as if it was aimed at the various new members on here. I completely understand where you are coming from but if people don't try out new ideas or variations of a product or an idea then all the cars of today would still have wooden wheels and boats would still have paddles. But as with many things and ideas things go around in circles and new variations come from old ideas. all i am saying is there is more than one way to skin a cat and i like my bow tank lol lol

Tony

Pascoe's complicated!!! lol by the way Ace and Danny say hi. Hope all is well

[Tony Davis]

Originally Posted by odyssey aka Blue streak

Tony

Pascoe's complicated!!! lol by the way Ace and Danny say hi. Hope all is well

Tell Danny he's really fallen on his feet this time! and ask Ace if his cuzz still does upholstery.

[larby]

Originally Posted by Matt

Another great observation!


People like a bit of bling - and therefore electrically filled ballast tanks etc sends people's knees a bit wobbly. However, it's also unnecessarily increasing the complexity and therefore both costs, weight and failure points.

The single fill and dump minimises the number of system components, and correctly positioned & designed, the dump can work like a self bailer on sailing dinghy. On a size for size basis, the "suck" you can can get on a correctly designed exit on the transom will far exceed anything realistically possible from an electric dump. And even just using a gravity dump on a large bore pipe, it'll empty pretty damn quick.

So in terms of designing a new product - the one that covers all bases is a well designed combined fill and dump. If a customer then chooses to only use the fill element with electric drain, then they can, or vice versa.

Would suggest you make sure the throws of the valve are in line with the 33C throws of a gear selector lever - fill, hold, dump.

Don't think (I hope) anyone was talking about filling electronically, just dumping. Other than that I agree with you entirely. Essentially all I'm looking to do is make a new type of fill/dump but where the workings are inside the hull. This thread has done all it needed to do for me by proving people want both options, it's turned quite amusing now though!

Originally Posted by DAREDEVIL

@ LARBY... oh well...just a BS TALKER keyboard hero he is !!!!

Just F*ck off eh.

[odyssey aka Blue streak]

will do i will ask in the morning and update you....

Originally Posted by Tony Davis

Tell Danny he's really fallen on his feet this time! and ask Ace if his cuzz still does upholstery.