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25-09-2010, 05:00 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Country: USA
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Occupation: Boat builder, consultant
Interests: Sportscar racing IMSA / Restoration of old offshore race boats...I own the 35 foot Cigarette Spirit. Benihana
Boat make: Banana boat, 28SS Cigarette, 35 Foot Cigarette
Cruising area: Narragansett Bay / Atlantic Ocean
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Posts: 178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Good post.
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Thank you Jon
You know in there I slam the boat builders. Being one myself, I am working on a new race deck for our 39 or it will be 40 footer.
The boat can be purchased just as a hull and deck by any racer that wants to rig his own boat. If they decide to use old drives and engines that can be refreshed, fine. All they have to do is run the 271 miles in next years race.
This way they will have the confidence knowing they will have a purpose built race boat underneath them that will last the whole way in real ocean conditions.
Guy like Mike Bontoft or Bobby Saccenti can rig them if they need an outside rigger, but they can use whatever engine and drive and tabs they own or can purchase reasonably.
We want this to work for as many as possible and we are trying to lower the cost of entry and still keep it safe. Hopefully other builders will follow our lead and then we can have a real test of many design hulls again like the old days.
I am pricing a new 28 foot Banana outboard racer, for someone for next years race. He wants it just like the old school outboards of the past...like below.
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27-09-2010, 11:01 AM
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#22
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Registered User
Country: Spain
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,726
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Good luck to you Charlie. Post #19 says it all really. If my numbers come up I'll be there!
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30-09-2010, 08:04 PM
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#23
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Registered User
Country: USA
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Occupation: Boat builder, consultant
Interests: Sportscar racing IMSA / Restoration of old offshore race boats...I own the 35 foot Cigarette Spirit. Benihana
Boat make: Banana boat, 28SS Cigarette, 35 Foot Cigarette
Cruising area: Narragansett Bay / Atlantic Ocean
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Posts: 178
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Once again....the only goal of HORBA is to do two things
1.) Save the old race boats before they are cut up and destroyed.
2.) Give the racers a venue to show or race the boats and let people see, hear and experience the real history of the sport.
We have a lot of positive feed back from the Around Long Island marathon and this event will be done again in 2011. We have serious interest in the Great Lakes region for a 2011 event also. We need groups who are willing to put on this kind of event in California and Florida....one race a year is all we are looking for help with.
We are trying to keep this as wide open and simple as the old days, so that eveyone has a chance to compete and win. Here are some suggested classes by T2X.
I suggest broad class limits.....
3 or more gas or diesels up to 50 feet
Twin inboard gas or diesels up to 40'
outboards up to 32 feet
Single inboards up to 32 feet
and
Nostalgia boats over 35 years in age..........
The part about the Historic boats being over 35 years of age would rule out anything newer than 1976, so in the interest in getting more of these boats out there running again, I would like to see that less of a restriction. But beyond that, it would be simple and easy to regulate and supervise.
What do the racers think?
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30-09-2010, 08:31 PM
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#24
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Banana
What do the racers think?
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Think it's pretty good, except maybe rather than just saying "twin gas or diesel inboards up to 40'", things could be set up with some sort of capacity, or power limit between classes. Our twin diesel 31'10" (total 6.4 litres of engine capacity) would fall in with 'potentially' some serious stuff, for example a 38' Buzzi with twin 1050hp Seateks, or any number of American sub 40 footers with 2000+hp. (we have 580hp)
Just an observation though, it's your race.
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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30-09-2010, 08:51 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Country: USA
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Occupation: Boat builder, consultant
Interests: Sportscar racing IMSA / Restoration of old offshore race boats...I own the 35 foot Cigarette Spirit. Benihana
Boat make: Banana boat, 28SS Cigarette, 35 Foot Cigarette
Cruising area: Narragansett Bay / Atlantic Ocean
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Posts: 178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Think it's pretty good, except maybe rather than just saying "twin gas inboards up to 40'", things could be set up with some sort of capacity, or power limit between classes. Our twin diesel 31'10" (total 6.4 litres of engine capacity) would fall in with 'potentially' some serious stuff, for example a 38' Buzzi with twin 1050hp Seateks, or any number of American sub 40 footers with 2000+hp.
Just an observation though, it's your race.
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Jon....point taken, thanks for the feedback.
BUT....we all know those 2,000 plus HP party boats, are not going to last in real ocean racing conditions.
The ocean is the equalizer, picture them doing this kind of racing below.... for 271 miles..
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30-09-2010, 09:20 PM
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#26
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,942
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OK, but even twin 600's would be tough for us to compete with, when we have twin 280's.
If the 'up to 32' inboards class wasn't restricted to single engines, the playing field would feel more level.
JF
BTW, the Buzzi 38's / Seateks are far from party boats. take one on at your peril, over any distance. A real Ocean Eater.
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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30-09-2010, 09:44 PM
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#27
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CINZANO 558
Country: Germany
Location: Germany, Düsseldorf
Occupation: Logistics
Interests: occasionaly work, if not out for boating
Boat name: CINZANO, Capriccio I+II and Propina
Boat make: CUV 38race, Sunseeker50 Cruiser, Sailingketch 55
Engines: race: ILmor, Cruise: Volvo D12, sail: Volvo D5
Cruising area: race:England, holiday: Mallorca, sailing: Netherlands
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany, Düsseldorf
Posts: 38
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U.S. Classic offshore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Banana
Once again....the only goal of HORBA is to do two things
1.) Save the old race boats before they are cut up and destroyed.
2.) Give the racers a venue to show or race the boats and let people see, hear and experience the real history of the sport.
3 or more gas or diesels up to 50 feet
Twin inboard gas or diesels up to 40'
outboards up to 32 feet
Single inboards up to 32 feet
and
Nostalgia boats over 35 years in age..........[/I][/B]
The part about the Historic boats being over 35 years of age would rule out anything newer than 1976, so in the interest in getting more of these boats out there running again, I would like to see that less of a restriction. But beyond that, it would be simple and easy to regulate and supervise.
What do the racers think?
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Hello,
You might have heard that i started racing in a classic design rebuild (2005 actually) at the 2008 round britain, only to sink the boat after 3 hours of 36kn 'racing'.
Well, if you fall of the saddle you either climb back, or...
In my case I bought Cinzano558.
2009 spent some time improving and finally winning 2009 CTC and british national marathon championship.
2010 saw us refurbishing Cinzano by stripping her down to bare alloy and rebuilt and repower to 725 Ilmor instead 645s.
Did win Round Ireland and managed a less successful double 4th on the worlds run at CTC. still secound to none but Mr. Buzzi on the UIM Worlds by points.
Still not to bad for someone exceeding 36kn first in 2009 and doing his 6/7th powerboatrace in a 30 year old hull.
Why do I recall this? Not that I think I am any special, but that it is quite achievable if you are well organised for many.
It wasn't big money either!
So, may be some others like Rob Gray were encouraged, or proved the way to follow and gain fun and success, too.
I have a new design by mr. Sonny and Martin Levi to be built for next year.
We are already late, but if we move faster, it would allow Cinzano to go on 'holiday' to the States in 2011 and have sunshine.
May be it can join some of your races.
I don't care on class and if we win by accident again, who cares?
Taking part and probably finish a race is worth the efforts to me.
So select the classes as simple and most attractive to all as you like.
Our famous submarine racer in swipewipes, Mr J Fuller will join his boat as long as you give him and alikes the chance that underdogs can proof quite astonishing average speeds and a bit of seamanship.
He is not in best favour by the rules nowadays and still does it.
Seeing him out there i can tell you that the measured speed is of no importance but the feeling of having fought the seas.
If any of the readers had finished anything like CTC2010 in Britain, it would well feel like a sailingyachtsman crossing the atlantic or probably once around the world as a personal achievement.
This is why 'we' might join your races overseas, if any possible.
After Dean Gibbs managed to be the one third foreign content of your first reanimated real offshore race, why not keep up?
Best regards from Germany
Markus Hendricks
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30-09-2010, 10:20 PM
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#28
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
OK, but even twin 600's would be tough for us to compete with, when we have twin 280's.
If the 'up to 32' inboards class wasn't restricted to single engines, the playing field would feel more level.
JF
BTW, the Buzzi 38's / Seateks are far from party boats. take one on at your peril, over any distance. A real Ocean Eater.
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Every time I see this topic,I wish the old format of yesteryear was referred to.
OP I -up to 1200hp
OP II - up to 600hp
Forget the actual horsepowers quoted,just use the principal.You could apply the same to Historic,so 4 classes total.
Forget number of engines,and even length (although you would need a minimum for OPII for safety reasons,and max for OPI to stop monster boats/cost).
There comes a point when deciding the sort of boat combination that for each class there is the best hp/length/wt combination.
If you want to build a 36ft boat with 2 x 300hp engines,then chances are you may well be uncompetitive against a 32ft with 2 x 300hp,unless it`s very rough,but that`s your choice,and same goes for a 36ft with 2 x 750hp in OP I,but you may win in the calm.No such thing as the perfect boat for all conditions.
You can only fit so many engines to a max hp/length rule.Then there is the diesel v petrol debate which has raged for years with it`s pro & cons.
Outboards and inboards have always mixed it up in the same class years ago,it`s horses for courses,for if anyone shouts foul,another class is born,which defeats the object.
I`ve said this before,the more you break it down,the more problems it creates,so you might just as well keep it basic.
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30-09-2010, 10:21 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 137
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Markus,
We are definately going to this race in 2011 .... and some of the other races in US as well .... Nick has said that swipes want to go but need to look at the dates/classes ..... Mike Bontoft is prepping a small 'fun' boat to enter... could be tricky to keep Rob Gray away....
Anybody else up for racing through New York..... metres away from statue of liberty ( so I'm told...... we didn't get that far..Lol)
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30-09-2010, 11:26 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Country: USA
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Occupation: Boat builder, consultant
Interests: Sportscar racing IMSA / Restoration of old offshore race boats...I own the 35 foot Cigarette Spirit. Benihana
Boat make: Banana boat, 28SS Cigarette, 35 Foot Cigarette
Cruising area: Narragansett Bay / Atlantic Ocean
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Posts: 178
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Bottom line is, we have a bunch of people who just want to race like the old days. Like the owner of the little Sonic said....I can't believe so many people have congratulated me, for doing something I just love going out to do anyway.
We appreciate the feedback from you very much and certainly are listening, but we will always go for simple and all inclusive, rather than a certain brand of boat fits into a certain class.
We have seen this path before and we don't want anyone left out, but we want to be as open and welcoming to as many as we can, especially the new folks to the sport.
We are not discounting Mr Buzzi, we are just saying we welcome him and any others to come over and let's just have a blast. There is no World Champion in this series or even a Series Champion, just these individual races and you go out and do the best you can and have a great time.
It looks like the Chicago race is gaining momentum. Looks like Grand Haven Michigan to Chicago and back...220 miles across lake Michigan.
Do you have a definite date for RB11 yet? As we are trying to set our dates to make the time between easier for those who want to do RB 11 and Cowes....British and American competitors.
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30-09-2010, 11:35 PM
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 137
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RB11 Date
Charlie,
RB11 is 18th - 26th June
ATB
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01-10-2010, 02:09 AM
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#32
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Registered User
Country: USA
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Occupation: Boat builder, consultant
Interests: Sportscar racing IMSA / Restoration of old offshore race boats...I own the 35 foot Cigarette Spirit. Benihana
Boat make: Banana boat, 28SS Cigarette, 35 Foot Cigarette
Cruising area: Narragansett Bay / Atlantic Ocean
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Posts: 178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goinglean
Charlie,
RB11 is 18th - 26th June
ATB
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Thank you very much. Now we can start planning the logistics needed over here.
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01-10-2010, 08:37 AM
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#33
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Hendricks
I have a new design by mr. Sonny and Martin Levi to be built for next year.
Best regards from Germany
Markus Hendricks
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Markus, pray tell more! ???
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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01-10-2010, 08:53 AM
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#34
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BananaShark Member
Country: UK
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Occupation: Racer and builder
Interests: Winning races
Boat name: BananaShark
Boat make: BananaShark 34' Race
Engines: Twin Yanmar BY 260's
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Salcombe South Devon
Posts: 4,633
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We would do the race, but to be honest at the moment we have zero budget for shipping the boat to the states for a race, but you never know!
Marcus - sounds great and I would also love to hear more!
__________________
Cookee
British Champions! RIB Formula 1 2005
National Speed Record Holder at 90.15 (still)
www.bananasharkracing.com
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01-10-2010, 09:09 AM
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#35
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CINZANO 558
Country: Germany
Location: Germany, Düsseldorf
Occupation: Logistics
Interests: occasionaly work, if not out for boating
Boat name: CINZANO, Capriccio I+II and Propina
Boat make: CUV 38race, Sunseeker50 Cruiser, Sailingketch 55
Engines: race: ILmor, Cruise: Volvo D12, sail: Volvo D5
Cruising area: race:England, holiday: Mallorca, sailing: Netherlands
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Germany, Düsseldorf
Posts: 38
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Levi 50'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fuller
Markus, pray tell more! ???
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Easy it is on my desk as MK I for ages, but S+M Levi have altered it after Cowes.
It is about 15mx4m yes 4 and has a canopy, 4 seats and goes into class B.
It should run two engines only on fixed surface drives.
Steps yes
If you imagine some 2.5m waterline width with a deck of 4m after 2/3 of its length for stabilty.
Nose as a rocket to dive nicely without aerodynamic lift upfront.
Looking for good wipers for being able to undergo a swipewipes wavepiercing strategy...
It is behind timescedule and as you can see from Deans outerlimits would need to be moulded by easter, for Eric to be able to get the rigging done before the first race.
A non buzzi italian yard will offer turn key, but RFQ's for the moulds and the hull and deck plus cockpit will be asked in from capable suppliers alternatively with selfrigging in mind.
Thats about all known and no reson to hide. either we make it in time and budget, or Cinzano will have to do the early jobs in 2011!?
Brgds markus
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01-10-2010, 09:13 AM
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#36
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,942
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Look forward to it Markus, sounds like fun.
So semi wave piercing design? ( VSV style, without the 'S' ) Cool.
JF
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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01-10-2010, 01:53 PM
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta28
He's been thinking about this for some considerable time...
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Sorry, until you see this, it doesn't mean much...
Taken from "Dhows to Deltas" by Renato Levi, 1971
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01-10-2010, 04:06 PM
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#39
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Registered User
Country: USA
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Occupation: Boat builder, consultant
Interests: Sportscar racing IMSA / Restoration of old offshore race boats...I own the 35 foot Cigarette Spirit. Benihana
Boat make: Banana boat, 28SS Cigarette, 35 Foot Cigarette
Cruising area: Narragansett Bay / Atlantic Ocean
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rhode Island & Florida
Posts: 178
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Sorry....I also need the dates of Cowes 2011.
We are trying to see if we can fit the NY race into the month of July and still give everyone time to get back and forth.
I am heading off Sunday for a nice drive down to Florida. At the end of next week, on the weekend of October 7 to 9th, we are having the Old Racers Reunion, better known as OFF for Old Farts Forever.
We are having some roundtable discussions and I want to bring up this class format and our ideas surrounding the HORBA 4 race series.....it may take a year or so before we have all four up and running, but we have started.
At the gathering next week will be some guys who know a little bit about the sport as we knew it years ago....Odell Lewis, Mel Riggs, Preston Henn, Errol Lanier, John Connors, Brownie, Sonny Miller, Bobby Saccenti, Richie Powers, Steve Sirois, Rich Luhrs, Steve Berk, Vince Vento, Bobby Sheer, Willy Meyers,
Dick Clark, Billy Seebold, and many more that I can't remember now...old age.
I'm sure they will have a lot to say about this concept of getting real open ocean racing going again. Once again, we appreciate all your input on this.
Markus...your new boat sounds great, look forward to running against it one day.
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01-10-2010, 04:26 PM
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#40
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numbskull
Country: United Kingdom
Location: South
Occupation: none
Interests: none
Boat name: Leviathan
Boat make: Phantom 28
Cruising area: South Coast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South
Posts: 15,942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Banana
[B]
At the gathering next week will be some guys who know a little bit about the sport as we knew it years ago....Odell Lewis, Mel Riggs, Preston Henn, Errol Lanier, John Connors, Brownie, Sonny Miller, Bobby Saccenti, Richie Powers, Steve Sirois, Rich Luhrs, Steve Berk, Vince Vento, Bobby Sheer, Willy Meyers,
Dick Clark, Billy Seebold, and many more that I can't remember now...old age.
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We need to see an Old Farts Forever trip to Cowes 2011. I'd love to meet those guys. (met Brownie a few times, at the Miami show, and also at Stainless Marine)
__________________
__________________
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"I Agree with everything you say really!" - John Cooke to Jon Fuller - 26-01-2013
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