Round the Island race

[TimB-C]

You really do worry me !!

[alcapone]

Do not want to get involved with massive argument, but having read this forum string & having some knowledge, I feel I must state my opinion & some facts.

You r both correct in different ways.

P1 has promoted the sport fantastically over the last 4 yrs. However the promotion has got better & better yr after yr, and the sport has become very, very secondary. ie its been just like US wrestling, all show...no blow.

Years ago P1 chose to use the UIM P&N classes & rules, to set up their series because they suited their need. ie cheap and easy for compeditors to enter and cheap & easy to police the rules set. Insurance costs may also have been a big factor.

Nothing wrong with this plan in the early years. Compeditors in the embrionic years were attracted by the cheap entry costs to a well promoted UIM World Championship series. However, over the last few years P1 great promotion & coverage has attracted racers and some new sponsorship money into the sport. UIM & P1 failed to see what would obviously happen. Actually instead of tightening the rules and enforcing the rules in place, they actually loosened them.

The speed limit of 75mph for open cockpit racing is a very clever and safe rule. I have read all previous posts in this series and some people have no idea. If you stuff in an open cockpit at 50mph you will get seriously hurt or leave the boat. If you stuff at over 80mph you will definitely be very seriously injured or dead. over 90mph almost deinitely dead. Deaths in the sport is something I think all of us do not want to see. The death in Germany was however not caused by excess speed, but caused by another issue mentioned previously...ie racers being medically fit & healthy enough to race.

The speed limits are a good idea & set to keep racers alive when things go wrong. However over the past couple of years the UIM & P1 have taken note that the boats are going faster and instead of adjusting the rules (ie hp to weight ratios) they have just altered the way the safety speed limit is policed and calculated. 2yrs ago it was max speed on speed gun, last year it was the same max speed over the lap, this year it is max speed over whole race. F1 had the same problem some yrs back....they were clever, they did not stretch the rules to allow the cars to go faster they implemented strictly policed new car & tyre specs to achieve safer compeditive racing.

What is even worse after saturdays fiasco, P1's remedy was to start the race clock at the start of the new slow parade lap. Therefore letting all the boats run well over the speed limit. I would like to know what the UIM
commisioner at Cowes thought about this, as it was a clear circumvention of a safety rule. Also what would have happened if an accident had occured.
Insurance is obtained for racing on a fix set of rules and facts so that the underwriter can calculate any and all risks.

P1 also needs to police the rules in place. This year is the 1st year where engines have been taken away and dyno tested. The result being 500 to 700kg being added to the 3 boats in question.
Supersport rules state that all boats must be open cockpit. Open cockpit boats must not use seat belts/harnesses. Therefore I do not understand
(without malice or preduice) how the Dragon boat can comply with the SS rules. Mike & Jackie obviously race in an enclosed cockpit, they are strapped in, and carry personal emergency air supplies. This is not a slur on them or thier achievements, but is a slur on the organisers....rules r rules........or is it just the interpretation of the rules at that momment, to SUIT!!

Last yr Buzzi Bullit was not allowed to race, because they did not sit side by side, which was not even stated in the rules. If Drew had dropped Yan for an attractive blonde female, with a tight fitting race suit, the story may well have been different.........maybe!!!!

I have more to write.....but thats for anothr day.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by alcapone

Supersport rules state that all boats must be open cockpit. Open cockpit boats must not use seat belts/harnesses. Therefore I do not understand
(without malice or preduice) how the Dragon boat can comply with the SS rules. Mike & Jackie obviously race in an enclosed cockpit, they are strapped in, and carry personal emergency air supplies. This is not a slur on them or thier achievements, but is a slur on the organisers....rules r rules........or is it just the interpretation of the rules at that momment, to SUIT!!

Last yr Buzzi Bullit was not allowed to race, because they did not sit side by side, which was not even stated in the rules. If Drew had dropped Yan for an attractive blonde female, with a tight fitting race suit, the story may well have been different.........maybe!!!!

I have more to write.....but thats for anothr day.

Alcapone, you make some very valid points in you original post above about the history and policing on the Powerboat P1 rules and I agree that policing of the boats and rules is essentail!

Finally this year, after much complaining from me and other team managers they have finally started to Dyno the engines! They took Evolution engines in Cowes and took our and others in Belgium. Long may it continue!

Your last two comments (quoted above) however are completely wrong ... and I can only assume through ignorance ... so a quick history lesson.

When we built our boat to the rules in 2005 ... partial canopies were allowed in all classes, and full canopies were not allowed! If you have a partial canopy you must have seat belts and air (as with a full canopy under the UIM rules ... not P1)

After we won in Malta in 2006 ... a certain ITALIAN gentleman responsible for the rules started trying to introduce rules such as open top only, no foot throttle, no six drives, no 525 engines ... the list goes on. He stopped short of no pink boats, no lady drivers and no British teams ... but you get the idea

So despite his rule changes ... we are allowed to continue to run our boat which was legal in 2005 and 2006 under the grandfathering rules ... very simple.

This year, to stop INDIVIDUALS unfairly changing the rules, we now have a committee including teams to ensure they get set sensibly rather than they way they have been done in the past, and policed correctly.

Buzzi Bullet was not legal for one simple reason ... the rules state for supersport that the hull must be a production hull, with 10 boats, or the intent of the builder to build at least 10 boats for general sale to the public.
Drew's boat was a one off racing boat from Fabio, who has no intention of selling more.
That aside, Drew was treated very badly and had to go though months of pain before they finally gave him a yes/no answer about eligibility! Personally I am glad they are racing ... great team with lots of enthusiasm and my belief is if you want to go racing, win on the water, not in the rule book!

On you final comment "attractive blonde female" ... If I were Jackie I would take that as a personal Insult! Jackie has proved herself on the water over the last few years in every type of water imagninable and against some of the best racers out there! She also had to deal with a lot of S**T from other drivers in the early days for being a woman ... right up until she beat them! Funnily enough, they all go quiet then.

So, if you are suggesting we get treated any differently because Jackie is femail you have your head seriously up your A**E

Go look at the protests and rule changes aimed purely at us because we win!
We win because we built a boat to the rules, have a fantastic team, chose the boat carefully,and frankly have one the best drivers in powerboat racing!

Rant over ... thought that sort of prejudice went out with Aparthide!

[Carl]

well put

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by Mikey

...thought that sort of prejudice went out with Aparthide!

Apartheid. And it is alive and well and lives in South Africa ( except that now you cant get the job if you are white! )

[roger]

Mikey you state above:

"If you have a partial canopy you must have seat belts and air (as with a full canopy under the UIM rules ... not P1)".

On what grounds do you base this statement?
Your Grandad must be important to give you the right to break the rules.
It is a fact that it is a lot easier to drive faster with belts on, than without.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by roger

Mikey you state above:

"If you have a partial canopy you must have seat belts and air (as with a full canopy under the UIM rules ... not P1)".

On what grounds do you base this statement?

I am not making any statement Roger, it is part of the UIM rules, so is fact.

The basis for those rules is safety and physics ...

If you turn over an open boat, (hopefully) the team fall out of the boat before it hits the water. Doing that at 80mph if your are still in the cockpit will probably kill you. If you remember, both occupants of Carpenter fell out in Germany.

With a partial (or full for that matter) canopy, if you turn over, the force of the water entering an enclosed space at 80mph will force the team into the cabin and/or nose of the boat and hold them there until it settles. If this happens you drown! At 100mph, the force itself will probably kill you or break your neck before you drown!

Seat belts prevent you from being pushed into the cabin or nose, and air allows you to wait for the boat to settle. Seat belts also ensure you can still reach the air too!!

This is the reason that in every other class of boat racing under UIM at these sorts of speeds, Canopies are a REQUIREMENT ... and must be sealed, not open as they are in P1. Again, if you have a canopy (like Class 1, V-24 etc) you must have seat belts and air under UIM rules.

The reason that Kiton and Fainplast have pulled out of P1 is for the same change of rule ... all the boats were allowed partial canopies, but NOT full canopies with the hatches removed (like Fountain and Outerlimits). The changes in rules about canopies were not done correctly last year and will be fixed in 2008.

[Jon Fuller]

Good Post!!

Originally Posted by Mikey

Alcapone, you make some very valid points in you original post above about the history and policing on the Powerboat P1 rules and I agree that policing of the boats and rules is essentail!

Finally this year, after much complaining from me and other team managers they have finally started to Dyno the engines! They took Evolution engines in Cowes and took our and others in Belgium. Long may it continue!

Your last two comments (quoted above) however are completely wrong ... and I can only assume through ignorance ... so a quick history lesson.

When we built our boat to the rules in 2005 ... partial canopies were allowed in all classes, and full canopies were not allowed! If you have a partial canopy you must have seat belts and air (as with a full canopy under the UIM rules ... not P1)

After we won in Malta in 2006 ... a certain ITALIAN gentleman responsible for the rules started trying to introduce rules such as open top only, no foot throttle, no six drives, no 525 engines ... the list goes on. He stopped short of no pink boats, no lady drivers and no British teams ... but you get the idea

So despite his rule changes ... we are allowed to continue to run our boat which was legal in 2005 and 2006 under the grandfathering rules ... very simple.

This year, to stop INDIVIDUALS unfairly changing the rules, we now have a committee including teams to ensure they get set sensibly rather than they way they have been done in the past, and policed correctly.

Buzzi Bullet was not legal for one simple reason ... the rules state for supersport that the hull must be a production hull, with 10 boats, or the intent of the builder to build at least 10 boats for general sale to the public.
Drew's boat was a one off racing boat from Fabio, who has no intention of selling more.
That aside, Drew was treated very badly and had to go though months of pain before they finally gave him a yes/no answer about eligibility! Personally I am glad they are racing ... great team with lots of enthusiasm and my belief is if you want to go racing, win on the water, not in the rule book!

On you final comment "attractive blonde female" ... If I were Jackie I would take that as a personal Insult! Jackie has proved herself on the water over the last few years in every type of water imagninable and against some of the best racers out there! She also had to deal with a lot of S**T from other drivers in the early days for being a woman ... right up until she beat them! Funnily enough, they all go quiet then.

So, if you are suggesting we get treated any differently because Jackie is femail you have your head seriously up your A**E

Go look at the protests and rule changes aimed purely at us because we win!
We win because we built a boat to the rules, have a fantastic team, chose the boat carefully,and frankly have one the best drivers in powerboat racing!

Rant over ... thought that sort of prejudice went out with Aparthide!

[roger]

Mikey,
Which UIM rule are YOU looking at?
obviously not the ones that state,
The supersport class "must be open top".
and rule C.1.(q):
"pilots in open-top boats are specifically forbidden from using harnesses".

The 'grandfathering' extension is solely (sorry 4 pun) for the use of foot throttles in 2007 season, if they were being used in 2006.

[Ben]

F**king great. This has become the "their boat must be illegal" thread.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by roger

Mikey,
Which UIM rule are YOU looking at?
obviously not the ones that state,
The supersport class "must be open top".
and rule C.1.(q):
"pilots in open-top boats are specifically forbidden from using harnesses".

The 'grandfathering' extension is solely (sorry 4 pun) for the use of foot throttles in 2007 season, if they were being used in 2006.

Perhaps you should say who you are Roger, and then everyone else will understand what you are doing

The rules I am referring to are UIM 508 ... the rules you are referring to are the P1 2007 extentions to those rules. The rest is already explained. Remember ours was built and accepted under the 2005/2006 P1 extentions plus UIM which I can also quote back if you like :-)

If our boat was illegal as you are trying to suggest, then P1 would not let us race, or we would be protested and the protest upheld

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by Ben

F**king great. This has become the "their boat must be illegal" thread.

Aparently they are winning some races, so:

1) Their engines are cheeting engines

or

2) Their boat is a cheeting boat


or

3) A combination of the above.



Dont you pay attention! Any boat that wins more than two consecutive races is a cheeting boat - FACT!




( and if you cant protest them using the rules, then you can slander them online and in the pits! )



I dont know about Mike, but Jackie definately cheets in every race she has ever run in.

[Mikey]

C'est la vie!

Very rude of us to win

[TimB-C]

I remember well when the late great "red hot granny" Betty Cooke sufered the same discrimination, BUT funily enough never from the Italians...........They loved her....... Bella figa

[roger]

Mikey best not to get personal.
As for the fan club,
try to listen to reasoned argument.

The 508 (Offshore) rules do NOT apply to P1 and if they do your boat does not measure up.
You refer to

"P1 2007 extentions to those rules" (508).

There is patently no such thing as "extentions to those rules" that you describe.

YES please quote the rule that allow you to wear restraints.

[Mark Wildey]

roger

I'm kinda intrigued why the P1 Racing committee and other teams have not found the same information you have to hand.

From what I can see other race teams favourite pasttime is trying to protest other teams and would have done so if you are correct.

[cfun]

Roger if you have an argument with Extremeboat why not pm them or email them direct, thereby keeping things out of the public domain, the public domain is best used for pushing the sport not pulling it down, especially as many teams are always on the look out for sponsorship as are Extemeboat and these kind of constant attacks I can't help but feel are counter productive to this great spectacular sport and the very reason why there were no boats at bournemouth this September to watch racing

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by roger

Mikey best not to get personal.
As for the fan club,
try to listen to reasoned argument.

The 508 (Offshore) rules do NOT apply to P1 and if they do your boat does not measure up.
You refer to

"P1 2007 extentions to those rules" (508).

There is patently no such thing as "extentions to those rules" that you describe.

YES please quote the rule that allow you to wear restraints.

You're simply talking rubbish!
Say who you are instead of hiding behind "Roger" ... I know

UIM governs safety through the Offshore Rules, Pleasure Navigation for the class P1 runs under, and P1 modify these.

I don't need to quote any rules ... they apply to ALL racing

I'll send you the books for free if you like

[Jon Holmes]

I fail to see how continuing to promote the sport whilst burying any problems is going to benefit anyone?

I am probably not alone in wanting to know what i am getting myself into before parting with money, weather powerboating or house buying.

The problems should be tackled and dealt with now.

[roger]

Mikey
You loosely refer to but refuse to quote the 508 rules and say they apply. I disagree. But if they do, can you reason your way round 508.3? I quote:

"REINFORCED COCKPIT AREA AND CANOPY
ALL BOATS WITH RESTRAINTS must have a reinforced Cockpit Area with Canopy, which should be constructed entirely of materials equal to the strrength of the running surace of the boat, or stronger. This area must be the SIDES, floor, decking and bulkheads fore and aft.
It is mandatory to CLOSE the canopy with a hatch, and the HATCH TO REMAIN CLOSED during all racing and practice."
end quote.

In the case of P1 the Pleasure Navigation (and predominately the 308 section) applies. The UIM Offshore rules do not apply and you are wrong saying that they do.

I would disagree that you are safer 'belted' in a partial canopy like yours. Are the Dragon boats sold with restraints as standard equipment in US?