Round the Island race

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by roger

Mikey
You loosely refer to but refuse to quote the 508 rules and say they apply. I disagree. But if they do, can you reason your way round 508.3? I quote:

"REINFORCED COCKPIT AREA AND CANOPY
ALL BOATS WITH RESTRAINTS must have a reinforced Cockpit Area with Canopy, which should be constructed entirely of materials equal to the strrength of the running surace of the boat, or stronger. This area must be the SIDES, floor, decking and bulkheads fore and aft.
It is mandatory to CLOSE the canopy with a hatch, and the HATCH TO REMAIN CLOSED during all racing and practice."
end quote.

In the case of P1 the Pleasure Navigation (and predominately the 308 section) applies. The UIM Offshore rules do not apply and you are wrong saying that they do.

I would disagree that you are safer 'belted' in a partial canopy like yours. Are the Dragon boats sold with restraints as standard equipment in US?

Ed, you are just being silly now ...

The rule is superceded by the 309 Addendum with the rule ...

2006 P1 Addendum - 309-405-502

Section C – Boat specifications (so general to ALL classes, SS and EVO)

1. General Rules applicable to all categories

(d) The spirit of endurance racing is that boats should be open top.
Water deflectors are permitted. Cock-pit like canopies and partial
canopies are permitted to the extent that there is an open top frame with
a minimum open space sufficiently large (minimum 550mm x 825mm) for
each person in the boat to exit immediately, or that there is an open
space in the rear of the craft sufficiently large (minimum 1.3m²) for all
crew to exit the boat immediately.

Which ours complies to .... I'm sure we could quote rules to each other all day long, but it's boring! If you have a problem, make a protest

[roger]

Mikey
The 'rule' that you quote you have incorrectly copied you seem to have copied 4.(b) which only applies to Evolution boats (see correct rule below).
There are no changes/addenda/extentions to the 2007 Rules that change the rules that we are talking about. Go to the UIM web site, rules section, PN Rules and it is all there.

The current 2007 UIM PN Rule C 1. (d) reads as follows:

" The spirit of endurance racing is that boats should be open top and feature normal cruising-style side-by-side seating, "Tandem" style seating arrangements in cockpits are specifically prohibited."

The above is endorsed further by supersport class rule 3.(c) (read UIM PN rules on website).

This is somewhat different to what you lead us to believe.
Please let me know why you think this rule has been superceded and does not apply.
My only axe to grind is one of fair play.

[Mikey]

It is correctly copied from 2006 rules (I even state that in the post) and are the rules under which we are grandfathered ....

all of which was stated about 10 posts ago

[Jon Fuller]

Mike, you should know by now, if you're winning, you 'must' be cheating!

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Mike, you should know by now, if you're winning, you 'must' be cheating!

I know! Nearly got beaten in Belgium ... so we can't be cheating enough

[roger]

Ref 'grandfathering'
Refer also back to my post, 18 back.
The only legal grandfathering rights that your boat has is the previously stated 'foot throttle' allowance see: UIM PN 309 rule 3.(f).

[Jon Fuller]

Mike, I wonder if there would be all this interest in your boat/rules if you were consistantly bang last?

TD and I were reasonably sucessfull in T class, and got well fed up with all the stories we heard about our boat, it's engine and our apparent factory sponsorship!! (Mercruiser that is) keep smiling

[TimB-C]

It's called envy Jon, by sad little 's made worse by not using there real name!!!!!!!!

[TimB-C]

P>S> you and TD were NOT reasonably sucsessful

[beachaven]

This thread just proves the point that "alcapone" made....P1 & UIM have made up or interpreted the rules to their objectives. ie make the spectacle look better & better. (pls note I have no gripe or agenda concerning any teams, my comments are however directed at the individuals who are more interested at creating a promotional business at the expense of the sport and the real well being of the competitors) This year Outerlimits, a US team entered the P1 championship. They are great group of people with a fantastic looking and performing boat. However in Malta they passed scrutineering and raced, no problem. At the next race, with the same boat they were suddenly underweight and had to add, I hear over 400kgs. I do not believe for one moment they were cheating, removing weight between races as I had a good look over their boat in Malta and saw no evidence of weighting up. I do believe that in Malta they were treated with kid gloves so not to upset them, and so risk them leaving the championship. This being due to the enormous marketing potential that the US media opens up for P1.

This type of thing is evident with every new team that joins P1, when their is a good media/marketing angle. So Mike, I'm sorry but I do think the rules were bent or interpreted differently when you entered last year. Yes it was great PR for P1 to have British Woman driver & world champion. What is wrong though, is something I overheard you say to another driver in Malta on the sunday morning. At breakfast you were telling everyone how much fun you had in the (your quote "6m swells"), when all other crews were freely admitting they very scared at some moments of the race. When you were challenged, about its easier when you have an inch of plexiglass between you and the elements, your reply was "well you could spend £250 or 350k (I forget)on a boat, and then you could win".

You were right of course. However, by making this statement you are acknowledging that your cheque book has as much to with your winning as your skill. I know you have both made great sacrifices to be in the position you are today, and Jackie is a charming & nice person. But in my opinion your boat is the only boat of its type in the SS field and so gives you a massive advantage, especially in rough seas. Excuse my ignorance but how did you do in your previous racing? In my opinion your boat has indirectly led to other open cockpit boats pushing the boundaries of safety and the race organiseres
are now bending official safety rules, so the show looks good. I would like to know if you agree with this policy or should something else be done to make open cockpit racing safer? if so what?

As for your comment re BuzziBullit not being allowed to race last year due to production rules, 2 points you might want to consider........if you are right how come they can race the same hull this year, after only changing the deck to side by side seating? How many identical Dragon boats with your engine packages have been fitted with No6 drives (I know what the rules state, but the spirit of the rules seemed so important to some people last year)?

Its not you winning that pisses people off, it’s your attitude to others.
Most people use the word "arrogant".

A word of warning to all teams.........Cheque book sport may well work in F1, but where the sport is supported by enthusiastic, well off amateurs, the over realistic expenditure by a few will lead to a race of a few, until it is not a race.

As a fan I hope next year the rules will be understandable & easy to interpret.
But most of all be safe and lead to close racing.

Fingers crossed

[Mikey]

You are entitled to your opinion of course ...

Originally Posted by beachaven

So Mike, I'm sorry but I do think the rules were bent or interpreted differently when you entered last year.

Not true ... boat was built to the 2006 rules and checked and confirmed BEFORE the season with P1. If any part was not legal we would have built something else!

Originally Posted by beachaven

At breakfast you were telling everyone how much fun you had in the (your quote "6m swells"), when all other crews were freely admitting they very scared at some moments of the race.

I don't remember the conversation, but bar talk is always different to the real thing. You only have to read Jackie's race reports to understand there are clearly times we are scared too ... nothing to do with a canopy or not.
Look at the picture FORtwo posted on this forum ... do you honestly think that didn't scare the c**p out of us???

Originally Posted by beachaven

When you were challenged, about its easier when you have an inch of plexiglass between you and the elements, your reply was "well you could spend £250 or 350k (I forget)on a boat, and then you could win".

Anyone can build a boat (as opposed to buy a second hand one) to the rules. How much do you think Roscioli spent on his, or Sunseeker as a team. I can assure you that Roscioli paid the same as us and Sunseeker way more!
How much do you think some of the evolution boats cost?? $1m plus

Originally Posted by beachaven

But in my opinion your boat is the only boat of its type in the SS field and so gives you a massive advantage, especially in rough seas.

Maybe so ... that's the reason we built it to the rules in the first place. That said, in rough seas against two "open" boats in Belgium, the Diesel was more of an advantage than a cockpit! Eveyone makes a choice in their setup!

Originally Posted by beachaven

Excuse my ignorance but how did you do in your previous racing?

I think you know! In any case, we raced OPEN TOP RIBS at similar speeds to those we race now, and won in those too often, so we are quite experienced with open top boats too.

Originally Posted by beachaven

I would like to know if you agree with this policy or should something else be done to make open cockpit racing safer? if so what?

I don't agree with what you state as policy. All the rules in P1 need to be tightened up both in in terms of safety and boat definitions, but also policing of this. If you know me as well as you claim, you would know that I have (as have other team managers) relentlessly moaned at P1 and given them suggestions to improve this. One was Dyno testing which happened for the first time in Cowes, and OUR boat (among others) was selected for Dyno testing in Belgium.

The issue with "open" cockpit racing is that if they go over at the speeds we are now doing in P1 there WILL be fatalities. There were several serious injuries this year including a fatality. My opinion ... is they need to reduce the engine hp (rev limiters, smaller capacity, maximum hp etc) to slow them down to 80mph max. Screens that cover the driver over the height of their head should be mandatory. Look at how far above the deck line some teams are!

Originally Posted by beachaven

As for your comment re BuzziBullit not being allowed to race last year due to production rules, 2 points you might want to consider........if you are right how come they can race the same hull this year, after only changing the deck to side by side seating?

Because Fabio Buzzi convinced P1 he would build 10 pleasure versions!

Originally Posted by beachaven

How many identical Dragon boats with your engine packages have been fitted with No6 drives (I know what the rules state, but the spirit of the rules seemed so important to some people last year)?

10 ... they only put #6 drives on now!

Originally Posted by beachaven

Its not you winning that pisses people off, it’s your attitude to others. Most people use the word "arrogant".

You are entitled to your opinion! At least I post under my name openly, whereas you create an alias and post anonymously

Originally Posted by beachaven

A word of warning to all teams.........Cheque book sport may well work in F1, but where the sport is supported by enthusiastic, well off amateurs, the over realistic expenditure by a few will lead to a race of a few, until it is not a race.

The intent of P1 IS to make this the F1 on the water ... so don't get into this class of powerboat racing if you think you can do this on the cheap! This requires serious money and serious sponsors!! All of the teams are spending £100k plus per year just to race, and with repairs, a lot more.
This is like mid-tier motor (Car) racing anywhere else in terms of cost. I know, I used to run a Rally Car.

Originally Posted by beachaven

As a fan I hope next year the rules will be understandable & easy to interpret. But most of all be safe and lead to close racing.

Fingers crossed

Could not agree more

[Mark Wildey]

Hey roger/beachaven

Before I suggest it, is there anything in the rules that says you can't use these, once they've been made active

As you seem authoritative on the rules we'd better look to you rather than P1 committee or the other teams.

Cheers

Mark

[kiwiracer]

Reading threads like this reminds me that powerboat racing and racers around the world is so alike.
We have exactly the same issues over here in New Zealand.
Hope that makes you all feel better.

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by roger

I would disagree that you are safer 'belted' in a partial canopy like yours.

You are correct, it is much safer to stand on the top of an open boat whilst racing at speeds of 90mph+. This canopy malarky semi or full is a bunch of bollocks and should be banned by the UIM.

[TimB-C]

bored again Marc??????????????????????? For someone who races a canopied boat you do sometime talk a load of ****.
As someone who grew up standing and racing in offshore and hated it when we had to use canopies,and 137 mph standing, even I know being belted makes for better driving and safer IF involved in an accident, but also have the inteligence to know that IN an incident that SOMETIMES outside assistance is required, Twice when we turned over I had to go back and drag my Boss/driver from the capsule.
Future endurance events will always disallow canopied boats. Unless you have your own air & medical cover.
So Marc please let it rest once and for all.

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by TimB-C

Future endurance events will always disallow canopied boats. Unless you have your own air & medical cover.
So Marc please let it rest once and for all.

Only if people like you get your way, but as you dont appear to actually race anything, I dont think we have to worry about that.

Besides, I was agreeing with you

It is idiotic to suggest that personal air and medical cover will be required for racing in the future, and in the same breath say how good things were in the 70's.

[TimB-C]

Marc you are taking things out context and twisting them.
As for not racing NOW correct, organising ???? watch this space..........
My career speaks for it's self..

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by TimB-C

Marc you are taking things out context and twisting them.

I learned this from you. Are you proud of me?

Originally Posted by TimB-C

As for not racing NOW correct, organising ????

Oh well, if the sport is dieing, at least you will put it out its misery quickly. Hey, why not form your own 'special' organisation and bring back the 1972 rulebook, and get those with a death wish to race under them thar rules!

Originally Posted by TimB-C

My career speaks for it's self..

Listening..... Cant hear anything. Possibly I was not born then ?

[TimB-C]

Unfortunately Boatmad forbids me to respond.............appropriately

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by TimB-C

Unfortunately Boatmad forbids me to respond.............appropriately

I know *exactly* how you feel !