Thunderbird in storage for 33 years

[Cookee]

Did you hear about the Nortech that broke its nose and sank in Sardinia? A brand new 2010 boat not even going flat out! Another example of American boats underestimating European conditions or just poorly made?

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Cookee

Did you hear about the Nortech that broke its nose and sank in Sardinia? A brand new 2010 boat not even going flat out! Another example of American boats underestimating European conditions or just poorly made?

Tony Dowleys Nor Tech did the same. running in norway, the deck peeled off from the bow. went back to flat water land for repair and sale, as is probably wouldn't have sold here.

dont forget shelly jorys Nor tech mono, that fell into small pieces in P1, with a large section of bow washing up on the beach. the rest heading for the seabed.

EDIT> just realised you were referring to Shelly's boat. DOH

[FLYING FISH]

U.S.Build is always up for debate.Black Tornado is right in what he says,but that was a different era.What Jon says also has credence, as today the racing in U.S. and P1 is round the cans,so designers gear up for that sort of racing,so you end up comparing boats on a mickey mouse course to an Offshore classic in real open water conditions.

Just look at a bit of history and you`ll find all the great drivers who participated world wide,had great respect for the English and Italian classic races,to the point where it was quoted ` Your not one of the greats until you have participated in the Cowes - Torquay or Viareggio - Bastia.

As `T2X` in the U.S. one said `Offshore history began when you first participated in the sport`,which is so true when you read the sort of claptrap comparisions that appear.

[Martin The Talker]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

U.S.Build is always up for debate.Black Tornado is right in what he says,but that was a different era.What Jon says also has credence, as today the racing in U.S. and P1 is round the cans,so designers gear up for that sort of racing,so you end up comparing boats on a mickey mouse course to an Offshore classic in real open water conditions.

Just look at a bit of history and you`ll find all the great drivers who participated world wide,had great respect for the English and Italian classic races,to the point where it was quoted ` Your not one of the greats until you have participated in the Cowes - Torquay or Viareggio - Bastia.

As `T2X` in the U.S. one said `Offshore history began when you first participated in the sport`,which is so true when you read the sort of claptrap comparisions that appear.

Back in the 60's I belive that the old GRP Bertrams were heavily built.
But of course, to cross the Gulf Stream between Miami & Nassau, you needed a strong hull.
When was the last Miami-Nassau Race or Bahamas 500 Race run I wonder ?

[littlenige]

Going back to the Will Smith Phantom - there you have it!!! I spoke with Will briefly and told me that those boats are normally built with 9 bulkheads, but when he heard the boat was for racing in english waters, he increased the number to 15. Says it all!

[Jon Fuller]

I don't think it's so much 'the waters', though they can be pretty nasty, it's a case of what conditions the differing nations consider racable. the builder then, as Graham says, build to best suit that, at a budget.

You can build light boats that are strong, but it's costly, so building light boats (for the speed) that are cheap will always be the evolution when budgets are squeezed. then, light = compromised structurally, well, sometimes anyway.

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by littlenige

Going back to the Will Smith Phantom - there you have it!!! I spoke with Will briefly and told me that those boats are normally built with 9 bulkheads, but when he heard the boat was for racing in english waters, he increased the number to 15. Says it all!

Can`t help having a wry smile at `bulkhead` talk.Sounds horrendous.Even a non watertight bhd ain`t a frame.If the `bulkheads are built to more than twice the stringer depth,it`s sounds a bit inefficient.On a narrow beam raceboat,by the time youv`e allowed for a keel bracket,chine bracket and gunwale bracket,there ain`t much of a span to support,and you wouldn`t need umpteen bulkheads for rigidity,cause the hull/deck skin should do that.

Unoembassy/Abo has 8 frames and 1 bhd with 5 longl girders (you need 4 for engine support),and look how long Abo lasted.15 `bulkheads/frames` your avin a laugh.Perhaps it`s to meet the minimum weight rule.Oh-erer!!!!!

[Black_Tornado]

I do not think the boats made in the USA who took off to the CTC in 2010 they did catastrophic performances.
Fury finished third behind the "spacecraft" FPT and Kerakoll that still also has a engines higher capacity.
And here we could open a great controversy about the diesel generation and modern tech performances(see Audi in Le Mans).
But I believe that one race of true offshore is not sufficient to make statistics and conclusions.

[Jon Fuller]

Swipes doesn't have bulkeads. other than the firewall/seat mount.

All it's strength is in the Aramat/Balsa sandwich skin construction and hull/deck vertical supports. (and obviously the longits)

Will Smith was quite surprised at that. I reckon you either stiffen the hell out of it (shed loads of bulkheads) or let it flex. a few bulkheads is only going to create hard spots for it to flex on/round and delam.

[Black_Tornado]

No doubt as for the fact that in the U.S., but elsewhere in the World the several championships for years would be run with circuit races in the coast and then the boats are specially designed .
It is also the fact that at least up to now the Endurance races not had any interest at all levels and technology there is moldy.
We hope that this CTC gives the input for a return to sports and technology of true offshore racing.
But I think it is a utopia.
I think a lot more to an annual event where old and new boats are compared on a classical course.

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Swipes doesn't have bulkeads. other than the firewall/seat mount.

All it's strength is in the Aramat/Balsa sandwich skin construction and hull/deck vertical supports. (and obviously the longits)

Will Smith was quite surprised at that. I reckon you either stiffen the hell out of it (shed loads of bulkheads) or let it flex. a few bulkheads is only going to create hard spots for it to flex on/round and delam.

Generally,yes.

I always used to reckon that within reason the more internal stringer work/frames you can incorperate,you can save more weight in the skin than the extra weight of increased stringers etc.Of course all this is a fine balance,and I wouldn`t think in terms of `bulkheads for extra strength,but maybe that was the easy option if it was so blinking fragile in the first place,but to go frm 9 to 15 seems a bit of a jump.

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by Martin The Talker

When was the last Miami-Nassau Race or Bahamas 500 Race run I wonder ?

1975 Miami - Nassau
1976 Bahamas 500

[FLYING FISH]

Originally Posted by Black_Tornado

No doubt as for the fact that in the U.S., but elsewhere in the World the several championships for years would be run with circuit races in the coast and then the boats are specially designed .
It is also the fact that at least up to now the Endurance races not had any interest at all levels and technology there is moldy.
We hope that this CTC gives the input for a return to sports and technology of true offshore racing.
But I think it is a utopia.
I think a lot more to an annual event where old and new boats are compared on a classical course.

`Moldy` technology! You crack me up sometimes Marco with your phraseolgy.I must remember that one.

One of the problems of having `unmoldy` technology,is cost.Can a builder afford to make a lot of craft like this for racing,when one off`s can be the norm.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

I wouldn`t think in terms of `bulkheads for extra strength,but maybe that was the easy option if it was so blinking fragile in the first place,but to go frm 9 to 15 seems a bit of a jump.

Remember this was a 'retro' upgrade to an existing boat. I said to Will, wouldn't want the job of fitting those bulkheads retrospectively. shitty job!

[Martin The Talker]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

1975 Miami - Nassau
1976 Bahamas 500

Thank you Graham,

Thats quite long enough for lessons to be forgotten, & Round-the-buoys racing, aka P1 , to allow build standards to deteriorate for, as Marco might say "The True Offshore".
Sam Griffith, Dick Bertram & Jim Wynne must be turning in their graves, sadly.

[Black_Tornado]

Originally Posted by FLYING FISH

`Moldy` technology! You crack me up sometimes Marco with your phraseolgy.I must remember that one.

One of the problems of having `unmoldy` technology,is cost.Can a builder afford to make a lot of craft like this for racing,when one off`s can be the norm.

Graham,I agree with the cost the fact remains that we are far from regarding Endurance a credible league at the moment.
All here.
When there are investments by drivers or yards can talk about that.

[DAREDEVIL]

2 things, american boats.....a nortech is swedish .....even tho build here...Wills Phantom..was maynly beefed up because the owner wanted it to race across the english channel and set a recortd and it was light in the front the way it was anyways..i dont think u would found 1 stress crack on that boat the way it was.
As for newer build boats, i agree they are build like paper..i dont like them either.....lol

[Jon Fuller]

Thought the NOR-tech guys were from NOR-way. However, yes, the founders are European, but clearly the build will have US influence, as they live/build there. They started out by splashing Cig's didn't they? (here in Europe) My words are not a criticism of the ability of the Yanks to build well, it's a criticism of the way your type of racing has given birth to a breed of construction that suits it.

JF

Originally Posted by DAREDEVIL

2 things, american boats.....a nortech is swedish .....even tho build here...Wills Phantom..was maynly beefed up because the owner wanted it to race across the english channel and set a recortd and it was light in the front the way it was anyways..i dont think u would found 1 stress crack on that boat the way it was.
As for newer build boats, i agree they are build like paper..i dont like them either.....lol

[Black_Tornado]

Jon, this is called 'evolution' ... even if you like me we do not agree.
But it is so. In the USA before anyone realized that the offshore as we had invented was not wearing in the future, because it was not a show.
The boats took off and then nothing until three hours after the finish of someone.
Spectators = 0 ,sponsor = 0 etc..
They started their in the end of the sixties and we in Europe ten or twenty years after started to do the same .
Then came the Class 1,( European-Arab stuff) all in circuit from when not racing in Viareggio in 1993 because of bad weather.
I remember, the drivers wanted more security. The tragedy of Casiraghi was still fresh in the memories.
Helicopters and medical assistance in a real offshore race was not possible to make it happen.
Even today, when I hear that the Lyme Bay was left without air cover. Or am I wrong?
The Endurance trophy that was born simultaneously with the Class 1 did not give the desired technical and sporting interest. Thus was born more recently that at P1 seemed to take back the scepter of race queen competitions at sea, but then they too were to compete in the circuit as in Class 1. A league of cats and one with mono. This the difference.
And this it happened in USA like in Europe.
And if we are talking about a return to offshore races begin to throw into the sea all the satellite apparat from the cockpits! Ok?!

[DAREDEVIL]

Originally Posted by Black_Tornado

Jon, this is called 'evolution' ... even if you like me we do not agree.
But it is so. In the USA before anyone realized that the offshore as we had invented was not wearing in the future, because it was not a show.
The boats took off and then nothing until three hours after the finish of someone.
Spectators = 0 ,sponsor = 0 etc..
They started their in the end of the sixties and we in Europe ten or twenty years after started to do the same .
Then came the Class 1,( European-Arab stuff) all in circuit from when not racing in Viareggio in 1993 because of bad weather.
I remember, the drivers wanted more security. The tragedy of Casiraghi was still fresh in the memories.
Helicopters and medical assistance in a real offshore race was not possible to make it happen.
Even today, when I hear that the Lyme Bay was left without air cover. Or am I wrong?
The Endurance trophy that was born simultaneously with the Class 1 did not give the desired technical and sporting interest. Thus was born more recently that at P1 seemed to take back the scepter of race queen competitions at sea, but then they too were to compete in the circuit as in Class 1. A league of cats and one with mono. This the difference.
And this it happened in USA like in Europe.
And if we are talking about a return to offshore races begin to throw into the sea all the satellite apparat from the cockpits! Ok?!

well said...i also think that my boat is build in between the 2 era's...lol its light and still very tuff !!!!!

i would like to race longer laps but then like u said the spectators/sponsors would get anything in return !!!

We will see..in 4 weeks gonna be my naxt race ( 1st this year ) after a long down time due to american getting screwed.....lol, then of to KW for the worlds and i think now ,,with new partner and engine ..the boat is even better then it ever was !!!!

Also , everyone is welcome in KW to join.....even britts...lol would be cool jon if u could come here with your boat and race with us !!!