Interesting Comment on H.225

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Scream-it.com

Is that so? I didn't realise that;-) But then I have a GPS installed too you know... and piece of TV footage with Shelly (I hasten to add in a very well prepared 225) stating on TV "Scream are absolutely flying!" from second place at that moment. It's pure fluke as the boat is almost box standard and little added prep, hence my comment about the latest Cougar boats. It took the coniston boat, ITV4 nearly 3 laps to take us and I was accelerating much faster than him until it broke down (sorry Honda ;-). Just those dastardly corners for me and that's just practice!

So ITV4 are faster than you, and they are the ones with the 68mph record? They weren't the first to try for a record in conditions that are much faster than a race.

On discipline the rules are rules but the sea moves. The events are very tightly controlled but the racing with such a volume is in close quarters just adds excitemen: both for us in the team and spectators.

I think it's the number and type of incidents that are being questioned - I started in a Class III World Championship in Norway with around 50 boats in a restricted width (by big cliffs) Fjiord and nobody hit each other. Of course TV and spectators love it - that is gladiator bloodlust!

Remember this series attracts a lot of car racers and the boat is designed that way. Having one person to navigate and keep a good lookout with no power or engine responsibility and the driver with BOTH throttle and wheel to me is MUCH safer than a distracted co-driver. Have to remember this is very different from other forms of powerboat racing. Driver and boat are definitely more at one :-)

I think you are badly misinformed Class III, RIBs, V24, OCR etc are all set up with the driver throttling - did you know that in the 225 Negotiator the navigator trims the boat

I get no buzz out of chasing Vortigern, Daze and Williams for 9 laps or even watching boats in other series 100s metres apart from start to finish as I saw in other classes in Cowes. For some it is the thrill of noise and endurance like Le Mans and for others it is somewhere between the bmw racing and F1 which usually promises thrills and spills.

The closeness of racing performance is definitely what is attractive about a one design sport, be it yachts, dinghies or powerboats, and although I get your point I'm not sure of the relevance of Le Mans and F1? Driver discipline (self discipline and from officials) is what keeps a series safe, and that is what has been questioned by others here. Surely it is possible to adhere to the rules and have a close race? OCR used to have similar sized fleets and although they were the same engines they had different hulls and the racing was incredibly close without the issues that have been raised.

I am not having a go at Honda, just trying to put across how the series could be made greater and safer for the competitors, I'm sure the TV would turn up to watch the close racing without so many collisions!

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Scream-it.com

On discipline the rules are rules but the sea moves.

I really must remember that one!

[Scream-it.com]

Originally Posted by Cookee

I really must remember that one!

Ha! but you see Cookee I have never raced in anything else so pardon my lack of experience. I have only ever sat in a 225 race boat and more recently a class 1 in Dubai. (That was on the truck too, so no moving road there unfortunately!). But all I do know is the OOD and officials have come down on me like a tonne of bricks when we cocked up!

Too close to safety boat - smack! Too close to spectator fleet in Cowes despite the fact there was a wall of spectator boats, dangerously on the course after the long lap buoy. Who let that happen? I guess you saw it too?

Yellow card for a collision with my German friends and cutting up 8 boats in the start run in Cowes day 2 - bloody well deserved too.

I consider myself pretty well reprimanded to be honest - and for the right reasons of course. ....Safety!!!

So I have to say I disagree with people that say that safety is not paramount in the eyes of the officials and racers. The safety briefings (during driver's breifings) are pretty tough. It is then down to the individual. When we step out of line we get smacked publicly and lose points and drop podium places.

That's what I mean about F1. A lot of the industry likes noise and space. Or oddly, even sitting before the finish and checking watches before going over the line??? What's that all about??? One of the attractions about Honda was it IS professionally run and the best way to see it is to join it! They have their internal politics but overall the best bunch of people I have ever met!

[Jon Fuller]

Bloody ell Cookster! that was all a bit articulate for you!!

Actually, on a personal level, I couldn't care less if the Honda lot wanna kill themselves driving into, or over each other, so my comments re: safety are probably sounding a bit off the mark from where I actually stand.
My only (selfish) concern is that when it happens (which I'm sure it will) and the lawyers, and do gooders get hold of it, and all the footage from over the years is used, the courts will have a field day with it, and they will make a good case that bad practice was encouraged. Powerboat racing 'generally' will pay the price, not just the mighty Honda class.

Powerboat racing will become uninsurable, ..end of. Then you can 'gob off' all you like about how great you all looked.

Scream-it, A 'smack' may not be enough. Excluded from the next 2 races for 'contact' might encourage it (both boats concerned). At least that would be a start in the right direction. It would certainly make all drivers VERY concious of their 'space'.

For anyone who doesn't already know, powerboat racing did actually exist before F4SA, and there were huge fleets, and very close racing. What they didn't have, was a society of heavy litigation, and the 'blame culture' we have now. The races however, were run in a way to encourage safety. It seems madness that in the current climate that this mindset isn't tenfold, as it has more potential these days to put an end to the sport completely if it all goes tits up.

JMHO

jf

[Scream-it.com]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Bloody ell Cookster! that was all a bit articulate for you!!

Actually, on a personal level, I couldn't care less if the Honda lot wanna kill themselves driving into, or over each other, so my comments re: safety are probably sounding a bit off the mark from where I actually stand.
My only (selfish) concern is that when it happens (which I'm sure it will) and the lawyers, and do gooders get hold of it, and all the footage from over the years is used, the courts will have a field day with it, and they will make a good case that bad practice was encouraged. Powerboat racing 'generally' will pay the price, not just the mighty Honda class.

Powerboat racing will become uninsurable, ..end of. Then you can 'gob off' all you like about how great you all looked.

Scream-it, A 'smack' may not be enough. Excluded from the next 2 races for 'contact' might encourage it (both boats concerned). At least that would be a start in the right direction. It would certainly make all drivers VERY concious of their 'space'.

For anyone who doesn't already know, powerboat racing did actually exist before F4SA, and there were huge fleets, and very close racing. What they didn't have, was a society of heavy litigation, and the 'blame culture' we have now. The races however, were run in a way to encourage safety. It seems madness that in the current climate that this mindset isn't tenfold, as it has more potential these days to put an end to the sport completely if it all goes tits up.

JMHO

jf

Ah but Jon, the rules are the rules. The PB1 states the Honda class rules and they are applied. OR would you say they are not - they have been to me. The officials last year were not solely Honda officials too remember, imposed penalties against the rules and we abide by them. I take my smacks seriously and I think most people do in this sport. Unlike many people on the road who are happy to ignore rules blatantly every minute of the day. I am not a proud owner of a yellow card but understand why it was issued and was able to learn from it very quickly. Wherever you have highly competitive people you will have collision risk but the most that can happen is that it is minimised as far as possible. Nobody has been killed in Honda which is a proud record. Where deaths have occured elsewhere like sailing, it doesn't stop the sport.

Perhaps I spent too much time around people like Pete Goss and Conrad Humphries to see a different perspective! Those guys know the risks but work to minimise them and I know that F4SA is doing that.

[Jon Fuller]

OK, so we agree to dissagree.

[Scream-it.com]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

OK, so we agree to dissagree.

Don't give up on me now! I am a recent addition to Honda as you know. But looking at it from a positive perspective:

Safety. How many other races have a video referee? The oficials scrutinise from helicopter footage too and if you watch Cowes day 2 you will see why I got a yellow card. I don't believe I would have had it unless the helicopter footage was there.

I think it's all the wrong way round. Honda and F4SA to me seem to be setting an example to powerboating about how to build run and grow a series for both competitors and sponsors and even TV viewers. Why did I get into it? Well, I saw Negotiator and the rest in Plymouth last year and thought...I fancy that. Then watched the programmes and thought that looks fantastic after last year's Liverpool race. Also I have a couple of businesses and I thought it would be a good way to promote them and the package is good from that perspective. Main TV not just Sky and even the Class 1 boys wish they had this coverage.

P1 Too expensive and little coverage. Class 1 - Maybe when I've sold a business or two in the next Century!

The advice from the teams is sometime gamesmanship but always supportive and officials always there to assist in rules and safety discussion and above all continual encouragement.

This is why, being new to the whole thing I am surprised why people are so negative about what is actually a positive in their field. Maybe it is easier to knock success than to join in and work alongside it?

Why is it people wish to see it fall over? That would be sad. The Round Britain is a class example of what should happen and oh buoy the politics I have seen around that. Just get behind it. I wish I could but at 44 and too many curries my back struggles to take the impact of a 45 minute 225 race

So as Jack Welsh says "If an idea cannot stand the test in the boardroom, it will die in the marketplace"...

Agreeing to disagree is NOT THE ANSWER!!!

Getting races and events more together would benefit all of us!

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Scream-it.com

Agreeing to disagree is NOT THE ANSWER!!!

It is if the other option is to agree that you're right.

I refer again to an earlier comment by me. 'Sugar daddy'.
Back when big companies were interested in sponsoring powerboating, it flurished, and was awsome. those sponsors are gone, Hondas interest is self evident, they're promoting their own product. P1 is funded in the main by a private 'sugar daddy'.

Honda is 'flurishing' in the same way all of offshore did in the days when the likes of Peter Styvesant were pouring money in the funnel, just like Honda are.

In short, F4SA haven't invented a new form of racing that is intrinsically successful, they just have a good sponsor. It aint nuffin noo. If it had to stand on it's own two feet, you'd be out with the great unwashed, arguing & bringing your own class down. If you believe any different, you're mistaken.

Therefore, I stand by my previous post.

I don't wish F4SA or it's competitors any harm, or ill feeling, it'd just be nice to see em act in a way that might prolong the death of offshore a little longer.
It maybe that some of the other classes apparent disslike of F4SA racing, is due to the attitude displayed in this thread, where it appears that the racers think they are superior as a class, because of it's success, when we (the old duffers who've been around a while, and seen all this ourselves) know that if Honda pulled the financial plug tomorrow, next season would be .........interesting without the sugar daddy purse.

[Temporarily Insane]

Cheers Cookee

[Scream-it.com]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

It is if the other option is to agree that you're right.

I refer again to an earlier comment by me. 'Sugar daddy'.
Back when big companies were interested in sponsoring powerboating, it flurished, and was awsome. those sponsors are gone, Hondas interest is self evident, they're promoting their own product. P1 is funded in the main by a private 'sugar daddy'.

Honda is 'flurishing' in the same way all of offshore did in the days when the likes of Peter Styvesant were pouring money in the funnel, just like Honda are.

In short, F4SA haven't invented a new form of racing that is intrinsically successful, they just have a good sponsor. It aint nuffin noo. If it had to stand on it's own two feet, you'd be out with the great unwashed, arguing & bringing your own class down. If you believe any different, you're mistaken.

Therefore, I stand by my previous post.

I don't wish F4SA or it's competitors any harm, or ill feeling, it'd just be nice to see em act in a way that might prolong the death of offshore a little longer.
It maybe that some of the other classes apparent disslike of F4SA racing, is the attitude displayed in this thread, where it appears that the racers think they are superior as a class, because of it's success, when we (the old duffers who've been around a while, and seen all this ourselves) know that if Honda pull the financial plug tomorrow, next season would be .........interesting without the sugar daddy purse.

Jon, did you mean 'prolong the death of offshore' ? I agree with you about the sponsorship and do have a a good idea about Honda's future plans. But you are right. It will have to stand on it's own feet. Check out F4SA.com and you will notice the lack of Honda in the new logo. The strength isn't just about the input from Honda it is also about the efforts of the teams that compete. At the end of the day the whole thing is a marketing effort either corporate or individual ego. You and I love the adrenalin and participation, but it has to serve an effective purpose for the sponsor(s) and their objectives. Our individual teams too need to assist the main sponsors to assist our sponsors whether we own them or not.

So my last comment somewhere here is that we should group together more and I think it is sad that the Cowes Grand Prix isn't happening as that was spectaular for me and my family/friends. It is sad that Class 1 couldn't come to Plymouth last year as I would have loved to race in front of my home crowd... though watching CP crash at 134+ wasn't good for anyone's heart rate!!

So the we are holy is not the case I think we just try to defend what has become a success. I know for a fact that it has surprised the Honda people too! They couldn't physically(like the UK head doing the commentary, like his secreatary organising events) manage the event so F4SA has been established recently to formalise the organisation and stop the ever-growing demands on Honda staff as they have engines to sell!

There is a lot happening in the series at the moment. New teams, new boats, boats changing hands and crews and new people running it. We'll have to see what happens but I think it will be positive.

For the rest more linked events would be great like Cowes and hopefully increases in other classes not decreasing participation. But it requires leadership to make it happen.

[delboy36]

scream-it i love you well said....................this has never been about us thinking we are better then anybody all its been is us defending ourselves and what we do and love may it long continue

[welshman]

Good on you Delboy36, Scream-it has made more sence on this subject than any one else in my mind (very small one some would say). Has any one looked at some of the Class 1 crashes and APPA ones, I dont see any Hoo Haa about them.

As Paul Hogan said once, in this Country, when someone or something does WELL you give them an INCH coverage in your PRESS, when they do BAD you give them Center SPREAD. That is what you are doing here to Honda.They have been with us for a long time and Ihope they will be with us for a few years more, but if people keep stabbing them in the back who knows what will happen.

If you read the rule book PB1, Honda is Bassic racing so we should be encoraging them all the time.

Talking of Rules, JF it isgood to see you are quoteing some as well as me,???? and SCREAM-IT did learn a lot from his yellow card, Hgot out in front instaid of been pushed about in the pack at Liverpool, good on you.

[ciao!]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

It is if the other option is to agree that you're right.

Honda is 'flurishing' in the same way all of offshore did in the days when the likes of Peter Styvesant were pouring money in the funnel, just like Honda are.

Not actually sure that is a fair comparison.

I think in '83 when my Father won the 3B championship he ended up with a cheque for £90. Ok - times that by inflation, but still not life changing.

What really dissapoints me about this thread is that it is still running strong after three days.

No one is commenting / posting on the RB thread that "Top Gear" are now involved - and the the potential benefit to the sport through media coverage etc.

[Wild Thing]

Lets all sit down like good children and watch the 150s and 225 on motors TV tonight at 8.00pm. Great stuff!
Lets be positive.

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by Wild Thing

Lets all sit down like good children and watch the 150s and 225 on motors TV tonight at 8.00pm. Great stuff!
Lets be positive.

Sorry, I'm washing my hair(s)

[Scream-it.com]

Originally Posted by Wild Thing

Lets all sit down like good children and watch the 150s and 225 on motors TV tonight at 8.00pm. Great stuff!
Lets be positive.

Nice one Wild Thing...can you spare me a few bob to upgrade my Sky? This damned powerboat racin' ain't alf expensive you know

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by ciao!

Not actually sure that is a fair comparison.

I think in '83 when my Father won the 3B championship he ended up with a cheque for £90. Ok - times that by inflation, but still not life changing.

I wasn't refering to prize money, I was mearly refering to the fact that without a sugar daddy of some sort, there wouldn't be much of a class to win anything in.

[Burty]

watched it. 2 crashes, another roll and 2 ejections i think thats it but i lost count not bad i spose for one weekend. First time i've watched honda but from seeing this programme i recon they spend more time in the water than the skiers in ski racing

[BluFin]

[QUOTE=Scream-it.com;124735]The safety briefings (during driver's breifings) are pretty tough. It is then down to the individual. QUOTE]

At the subsequent board of enquiry could I suggest a re-wording of “Down to the individual” I’d use something like “I followed Colregs as required by maritime law”
it could cut down on a fair bit of paperwork later on.



Scream (Just my humour)


Skull, I counted slightly more recall 12 I think

[Foolish]

Originally Posted by Scream-it.com

Cowes day 2 you will see why I got a yellow card. I don't believe I would have had it unless the helicopter footage was there.

what was it for ?