Round Britain 2008

[TimB-C]

might as well pack up and go home now then!!!!!!!!!

[Carl]

you wouldnt want to bet against him

[Jon Fuller]

I had a email turn up yesterday, with what appears to be a leaked communication from the RYA, wanting to question/alter some of the rules for the RB08.

Now, I haven't spoken to Mike about this yet, but how on earth can they demand, or even suggest any changes this far down the line, when as far as I know, they signed these rules off, nearly 4 months ago!!!???

They really do seem to make a full time job of trying to de-rail/sabotage powerboat racings efforts to improve, or even just stay alive. I think I'm right in saying that the RB organisers have sent writen rules off, to various coutries & competitors with the note that they're cast in stone, having been 'passed' by the RYA, and many people will be organising their teams/boats/stratagies based on those 'set in stone' documents. It beggars belief!

""Following an extensive debate, the S & T committee on the 1st Aug agreed that there were a number of concerns relating to the following headings:- { albeit this list is not exhaustive }

Adequacies of boats & auxiliary equipment?
Clarification on Open Top & Cock-pit Type Canopies?
Restraints?
Life Jacket Requirements?
Distances of long stages / Range of vessels?
Adequacies of Tow Rope & permanent methods of attachments?
Carrying Docking equipment?
Re-Fuelling @ Sea?
Emergency recovery expectations?

Mike, sooner than listing individual items or clauses it was thought better to arrange a meeting with some of our members & yourself to discuss this subject as a whole. If you agree we can convene at a mutual time & place convenient to us all where the detail of these concerns can be resolved.
Could you please indicated your response to this suggestion & suggest dates when you would be available ?
Best regards.
Mike King Chairman of ORC / Safety & Technical Committee….""

WTF is going on with them?? We really would be so much better off without them.

[mike k]

From what I've seen and read over the years it's par for the course.

[verytricky]

Mike K = mike king?

[mike k]

No.

[Cookee]

Cesa in Miami 2005

[Safety]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

I had a email turn up yesterday, with what appears to be a leaked communication from the RYA, wanting to question/alter some of the rules for the RB08.

Now, I haven't spoken to Mike about this yet, but how on earth can they demand, or even suggest any changes this far down the line, when as far as I know, they signed these rules off, nearly 4 months ago!!!???

They really do seem to make a full time job of trying to de-rail/sabotage powerboat racings efforts to improve, or even just stay alive. I think I'm right in saying that the RB organisers have sent writen rules off, to various coutries & competitors with the note that they're cast in stone, having been 'passed' by the RYA, and many people will be organising their teams/boats/stratagies based on those 'set in stone' documents. It beggars belief!

""Following an extensive debate, the S & T committee on the 1st Aug agreed that there were a number of concerns relating to the following headings:- { albeit this list is not exhaustive }

Adequacies of boats & auxiliary equipment?
Clarification on Open Top & Cock-pit Type Canopies?
Restraints?
Life Jacket Requirements?
Distances of long stages / Range of vessels?
Adequacies of Tow Rope & permanent methods of attachments?
Carrying Docking equipment?
Re-Fuelling @ Sea?
Emergency recovery expectations?

Mike, sooner than listing individual items or clauses it was thought better to arrange a meeting with some of our members & yourself to discuss this subject as a whole. If you agree we can convene at a mutual time & place convenient to us all where the detail of these concerns can be resolved.
Could you please indicated your response to this suggestion & suggest dates when you would be available ?
Best regards.
Mike King Chairman of ORC / Safety & Technical Committee….""

WTF is going on with them?? We really would be so much better off without them.

Jon

Most of the current S&T Committee's questions
are answered fully in PB1, which is the basis of the RB rules anyway.
If some people have now decided to move the goalposts, I suggest any intended entrant should consider legal action against RYA.
I was Chairman of S&T when we decided on technical rules for a proposed class, which never happened. The ORC Chairman was conned into overturning the S&T decision, despite assurances that ORC would never overturn a Safety related rule!

I gave up fighting, the Sailors who run the RYA are not interested in Powerboat Racing. So long as it breaks even financially, ticks a few boxes and doesn't cause too much trouble - they tolerate it. SWP tried to make senior people do something about the imbalance between Circuit & Offshore contribution to the money pot. Nothing happend, the paid staff are untouchable, while experienced, knowledgeable volunteers are expendable, but above all -TROUBLE. It has happened to many people, they are always got rid of.
Mind you, they might wake up. When there is no offshore racing, except the Promoter driven classes left. And those series that run as businesses do not need to be loyal to "The National Authority".

Enjoy!

[TimB-C]

If as you say "safety" busieness/promoter races can avoid "National Autorities", are drivers still able to race in national events and have a licence from there own N A??
Dredge (sorry to swear) told me that in this sort of case drivers would never get a licence?
I know much has change in 10 years but curious to see how you read this one.
thanks

[Safety]

I just need to clarify something:-

I AM NOT DEMONSTRATING BITTER RESENTMENT. I GAVE UP MONTHS AGO - WHEN I WAS GOT RID OF. I WILL CONSIDER ANY REQUEST FOR ME TO BE SAFETY OFFICER - FOR ANY CLUB. And on the subject of clubs, please can someone explain how the organisers have the LEAST influence of all?

[TimB-C]

Sorry Safety did I say something wrong?

[Safety]

Originally Posted by TimB-C

If as you say "safety" busieness/promoter races can avoid "National Autorities", are drivers still able to race in national events and have a licence from there own N A??
Dredge (sorry to swear) told me that in this sort of case drivers would never get a licence?
I know much has change in 10 years but curious to see how you read this one.
thanks

Tim, My message is that they could do without the NA.
Besides, if you have a Gong that no licence rule doesn't count. And it turns out its illegal anyway.

[Safety]

Originally Posted by TimB-C

Sorry Safety did I say something wrong?

No not you. It will turn out to be me!

[flightracingteam]

Ok Guys could this subject be getting blown a little out of context here!

Firstly the letter that has had certain parts posted on this thread, i say certain parts because the letter has not been posted as was written! This letter was sent privately to the organiser of this race and not to any body else. There fore if it was leaked as has been stated it was not from the RYA.

Secondly the issues raised by SAT and ORC regarding the rules are very simple and are purely safety based. The size, power and rigging do not come into this until you get to the canopied boats this event is an endurance event. It will not have the kind of safety cover that One has grown used to at a normal race. Ie there will not be a safety boat every few Hundred yards and the crews may in the event of an incident have to wait for rescue for some time. There fore the points to follow have been raised purely to try to keep everybody as safe as possible.

Issues that have been raised are the type of lifejackets, because as the rules currently stand you can wear a crew saver type lifejacket in an open cockpitt boat with manual inflaction so you could have a situation where the crew have sadly been thrown out of the boat, are knocked out and now drown because their lifejacket did not inflate. Therefore why is it unreasonable for us to request that crews wear proper racing life vest as per PB1.

Canopied boats taking part in this event are obviously a cause for concern as these boats may at times be 50 miles offshore with no divers to come and rescue them in minutes. Again the crew will have to look after themselves, and yes of course we are concerned about this it would be stupid and irrisponsible not to be.

Range of the Vessels, as some of the legs in this event are over 200 Nautical miles long. The difference between range and endurance have to be looked at. For those who wonder what i mean i will explain, if a boat is crusing at 50 Knots it will take 4 hours to do 200 N/M. Let us assume that it's fuel consumpion is 1 gallon per NM mile. That makes 200 gallons plus reserve fuel so One could say that they would need approx 250 Gallons to safely complete this leg. However this is where the endurance part comes in, let us now assume that the conditions are such that the boats have had to slow right down to 15 Knots it could take 13 hours to do 200 N/M, but your fuel consumpion could still be 40 gallons an hour as you are battling the elements and the boat as we all know is not working efficently at all consuming fuel that you haven't got. Again would it not be foolhardy not to consider this possibility from a safety point of view.

It must be stated that every member of ORC and SAT is in total support of this event, and applaudes the efforts that have obviously been put in to organise such an event, and want to assist in making this event sucessful and safe as can be reasonably be expected. The concerns that are being raised are by experienced racers and officials who have been involved in the round britain race in the past and not just some whim to try to make the organisation of this event difficult as has been stated.

I would also like to point out that this event could prove to be the greatest event in the history of Powerboat Racing in the UK, but it will be under serious scrutiny from global TV and Media alike. As we all know if something goes right it will be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but if it goes wrong it will be the worst thing that could happen in Powerboat racing ever. So some may ask why there are concerns that need to be looked at and some would say that these concerns are foolish. Well as far as i am concerned the safety of every crew member is the most important thing and i am sure if you take time to think about it concerns about safety and lives are never foolish.

Gary Manchester
Chairman ORC

[Mike Lloyd]

Firstly, I don’t like the inference behind the statement: “the letter was only sent to the organiser of this race”. We will have words about that later. That letter was actually circulated by me to others of my committee and to certain interested parties which I have every right so to do.

Also, I am stunned that the chairman of the ORC should talk on open forum about points that have yet to be discussed between my people and the S & T and also that he should write, with extreme naivety, about points that teams who have actually raced in offshore endurance races of this type, have no problems with whatsoever and neither do existing teams. Unfortunately, certain officials who haven’t actually raced more than two miles offshore should never make such statements on forums such as Boatmad, it makes them look silly and inexperienced. That will be my only comment here on this or any other point in that letter.
ML.

[CB1]

Mike the chairman of the tech/safety working group is gm's navigator. Tail wagging the dog???

[TimB-C]

Right then the other week Gary M you took a pop at me for some comments born out of 40 plus year of involvement of our sport and the total lack of knowledge and intelegence of a minority of people trying to run and make rules for racing, now this minority seem hell bent for some yet unknown reason, to us mere mortals that actually race,and be able to have their way, yet you come on here to day with your aggresive stance.
You can not change things now the rules are set and many people have bought/ordered boats for the race already.
Mike LLoyd who is to quote shakespere working his arse to make this happen and now you and herring want to get in on the act and change the goal posts...WHY???
He needs help not back stabbing doubters and scare mongers, get behind him or at least shut up.
Anyone, doing this race if they have not done or got crew who have done a real offshore race are in for one hell of a rude awakening.
This is in no way a discourtesy to those who go circuit racing on the sea, BUT till you have been to Land's End you haven't seen seas orhave the remotest idea of what is store, it can change in a minuite and the Irish on a calm day isn't that much fun, then you come to the north sea,
Anyboat running RB08 must be capable of carrying fuel for 350 miles!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the so called safety issues is a tow rope.....This is a rope which must be securely fixed to a pulling eye/bollard in the event of an emergency, and must not be longer than the length of the boat.So 41' Apache, line has to come back to the cockpit say?30'? then secured securely.OK? That rope is going to be fixed below the deck line and just a fraction above the waterline where the bow is hitting waves and the wake wearing and chaffing also no mater how tight you pull it it will flap,fray damage hull and deck and sadly break loose, doing one of two things at worst. One flying back and hitting the crew at some 70mph or even more fun 30+' going under the boat around a prop and stopping one enginge dead and causing the boat to spin out..Seen it in NZ '86 and we know what happened to the crew.The other fenders, well no self repecting boat owner is going to go without one to protect his boat, but one flying around a cockpit is very very dangerous.
I have used these as an example, you know like the one rule that the RYA suggested to the UIM after the 1990 tragedy in Monte Carlo and telling the worlds press this is a safe sport...........then the rule that says helmets must have race number on so we know who is who............Gary accidents happen and you can only go so far before turning it into a farce.
I do not and will not believe that anyone taking on this race as a competitor is taking less than 1000% seriously, and to quote your bed time under the cover reading book PB1 COMPETITORS MUST DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS.
I'm sorry if this sounds all to much. But Gary if Terry H is miffed for not being included in the line up of officials and you want people to know you are the top dog of ORC or what ever. I have to say I am surprised TH was not involved, he is a person I have the utmost respect for, I have worked along side him but I also know that he knows more about rules and scruitenering than ANYONE in the sport, but UNLESS you actually ask him a specific question he will not give you the advice freely.
There is a little known rule that can solve the whole problem of you trying to put a spanner in the works, I have onle seen it used twice, once was Sopwith in Key West 1970 and that is to race under protest. This means the organiser while staying under the umbrella of the National(joke) Authority can allow any boat to race subject to a protes meeting to be hald at a later date....
Think about this one Gary because I can see this race either not going ahead 1.) because the "rule makers" are scared of getting their sad sorry arses hung out to dry and live such sad lives that the lie awake at night dreaming up idiotic regs or 2.) The race will go ahead without the RYA and its leeches and hangers on and become a rally or giant poker run, OR my personel favorite
75 race boats running 8/9 legs around Britian ALL UNDER PROTEST. Should
Certainly take you a couple of years to hear all the protest and then a few more to hear the appeals...........
Suggestion, let ML get on with organising the greatest race ever and bathe in his achievment not be known as yet another person like Ridout/Lewis and Dredge who have just brought a great sport to it's knees and exclude the people who make the sport great.
Yet you wonder why people will not stand up and organise races or do volantary work to make great events happen.........It is quite simply because all they get is stabbed in the back and absolutely no support from the powers(wankers) that be..
One last thing the least important person at a race is the crew!! The most important? THE organiser and his team then the spectator, no spectator no sponsor no sponsor no race.no race no boats. no boats????????????what you gonna do m8?????????????????? get a life?

[verytricky]

First!

Originally Posted by CB1

Mike the chairman of the tech/safety working group is gm's navigator. Tail wagging the dog???

Are you an entrant in the race, or are you just sitting on the sidelines stirring trouble? Dont have to answer that question actually.



Second:

Originally Posted by OldMan

Firstly, I don’t like the inference behind the statement: “the letter was only sent to the organiser of this race”. We will have words about that later. That letter was actually circulated by me to others of my committee and to certain interested parties which I have every right so to do.

Originally Posted by flightracingteam

Firstly the letter that has had certain parts posted on this thread, i say certain parts because the letter has not been posted as was written! This letter was sent privately to the organiser of this race and not to any body else. There fore if it was leaked as has been stated it was not from the RYA.

The inference of the posting by JF could be that the RYA leaked the letter. That was my impression when I read it, and thought that the RYA was causing a problem, and did not understand why. Gary has corrected this misconception by stating that the RYA did not send this letter to any other person, and as the letter was 'leaked' it was not by the RYA - which again was what my initial thought was - and I am sure others thought the same.

Originally Posted by flightracingteam

Secondly the issues raised by SAT and ORC regarding the rules are very simple and are purely safety based. The size, power and rigging do not come into this until you get to the canopied boats this event is an endurance event. It will not have the kind of safety cover that One has grown used to at a normal race. Ie there will not be a safety boat every few Hundred yards and the crews may in the event of an incident have to wait for rescue for some time. There fore the points to follow have been raised purely to try to keep everybody as safe as possible.

<snip>

Canopied boats taking part in this event are obviously a cause for concern as these boats may at times be 50 miles offshore with no divers to come and rescue them in minutes. Again the crew will have to look after themselves, and yes of course we are concerned about this it would be stupid and irrisponsible not to be.

OK? Answer me this? I wanted to race in a canopied boat, and I was told specifically that I was not allowed *despite canopied boats being very much safer* So why is there even a question of canopied boats? They are banned as per the last communication I had from the organisers. If they are not banned I would be much safer inside a canopied boat. Technology has moved on - there are self righting systems for canopied boats ( as of 10 years ago ) and they are in daily use by the RNLI.

Originally Posted by flightracingteam

Range of the Vessels, as some of the legs in this event are over 200 Nautical miles long. The difference between range and endurance have to be looked at. For those who wonder what i mean i will explain, if a boat is crusing at 50 Knots it will take 4 hours to do 200 N/M. Let us assume that it's fuel consumpion is 1 gallon per NM mile. That makes 200 gallons plus reserve fuel so One could say that they would need approx 250 Gallons to safely complete this leg. However this is where the endurance part comes in, let us now assume that the conditions are such that the boats have had to slow right down to 15 Knots it could take 13 hours to do 200 N/M, but your fuel consumpion could still be 40 gallons an hour as you are battling the elements and the boat as we all know is not working efficently at all consuming fuel that you haven't got. Again would it not be foolhardy not to consider this possibility from a safety point of view.

This is something that does worry me, and I *am* an entrant in the race and I am not just someone sitting on the sidelines causing trouble! My estimated fuel consumption will be IRO 2.1 litre per nautical mile at 'race speed'. So for a 200nm leg I would need 480 litres of fuel. Which is about double what I currently carry. If I reduce speed to displacement speed, I use IRO 4.5 litres per nm. Which means I would need to carry 1/2 my race speed fuel and 1/2 displacement fuel ( assuming I got halfway before shyte happened.) which would mean 800 litres of fuel. Which is four times the fuel I have carried before! Which meand I need to revisit my fuel calculations, as sure as shyte carrying half a ton more weight would affect the fuel consumption as well as the speed and handling!

[verytricky]

Originally Posted by TimB-C

Anyboat running RB08 must be capable of carrying fuel for 350 miles!!!!!!!!!!!

FECK!
If that is at displacement speeds, then it is simply not possible. Seriously - not a possibility at all. Not able to do that.

[TimB-C]

VT the run up to Bangor is near as damn it 230 nm!!!
Staright run in calm seas tough but if it is bad you have 2 options, depending where the wind is coming from.
SW 6/7 once round the headland you run along the coast till you get to Liverpool Bay then hop behind the Isle of Mann and across or Nwester hed due east to the irish coast un hug it all the way up, if your brave and it is a SWester do the same but you are going to burn double fuel on the way over and still have nearly 200 to go!!!!!!!!! You could be out there 9 hours.................. .......
Also on the way around lands end if it brews up in the bristol Channel you will have to run along north Cornish Coast before heading NW to M H..
I have been that way many times and let me tell you sw 4/5 roung Lizard and L E you will be lucky to do 25/30 unless you are in a big 40+'........